Capital punishment
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@unknownuser said:
Well then Kwist you must know he has kids so ....Sorry Solo.
I'm now interested in hearing what he would do in the situation I described.???
Well, I think every one has its own personal way of dealing with things.
Some years ago we had a psycho killer in Belgium that murdered children.
The killer got caught and as I remember, the parents didn't kill the killer in return.
Instead they went through a very difficult mourning process (which they probably go through for the rest of their lifes).The criminal got convicted and is incarcanated for life.
The parents often spoke to the press during the trial. Their emotions were really intense, but never they spoke of revenge (at least not in a physical sense). They handled it all with dignity, even though it must have been hell for them.I admire those parents for their mental strength.
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yeah.. as a guinea pig, maybe. Hard time call for hard way. Crime is ranpid and murder is becoming the sport of choice, Do you honestly believe that keeping Jeoffrey Dommer alive was a good thing?? what about the oklahoma bomber? Benladdin?? Still think capital punishment is such a bad thing??
Make the punishement suit the crime. @5 years as the holiday inn ain't the answer.
Mike RL
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I don't believe in any God myself, but I do have principles which basically are humanistic of nature.
And killing a human being to me is not justified...not in any circumstance.I always count to 10 when I get really angry, and usually that prevents me of saying or doing stupid things.
When a parent looses a child in a brutal way, they would probably have to count to 10 quadrillion to become calm again.....but the principle remains the same.The ability to gain control over our emotions is what seperates us from the animals.
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In a way, this topic is similar to abortion. You either believe it has it's place, or you don't. Period.
Recently the US Supreme Court declared the death penalty unconstitutional for child rape. Now, I can tell you that if my granddaughter got raped, I would think long and hard about killing the bastard. Now, whether I would go through with it....I can't say. You'd have to live it to know.
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I knew I should not participate in this kind of discussions.
See you guys in other (less violent) threads. -
Capitol punishment is a joke.
Lets suppose that in the USA their are 20,000 on death row for easy math Lets say that number is now the cap. 20K max!
Number 20,001 coming in kicks up #1 to the chair. Un-emotional and simple. So #20,001 has until his turn at #1 to appeal, fight, shank, get free medical and cable TV. While he is between books and researching a subject for his next... Painting.Also Capitol punishment is usually reserved for the murder conviction. What about the predatory petifile or rapists, Just like abortion. My view is that we are having to few of both.
GOD -
I am fairly certain I wouldn't be able to be as dignified as the parents Kwist was referring to. What an unbearable loss they suffered. (Let's not forget the killer's parents either. His father lives in Gent, Belgium. I often saw him there, wandering on his own. Never saw a sadder face.)
I've never lost any children, but I did bump into a couple of burglars once. I can tell ya - out went reason and consideration. I instantly rushed towards them (there were two), and started hitting them as hard as I could. I was into power training at the time, so I could hit pretty hard. Now, it wasn't like I wasn't thinking at all anymore. Oh no. I was very clear-headed. But there was only one very, very dominant thought in my head: it's either you or me. I beat the cr*p out of them. I simply couldn't resist the urge. (Mind you, I'm not a violent person - I was astonished afterwards.) In any case, they fled.
Strangely, they decided to come back two days later. Same scenario: I immediately hurled myself at them. Automatically, as it were. Now, by then I had a hunting rifle. Not because of the burglars, I needed it as a prop. It was real enough, but luckily it didn't work anymore. Otherwise, yours truly would've two deaths on his conscience. Which obviously would've been terrible. There's no doubt in my mind: I would have fired that gun.
What I'm saying is: I understand the opinions vented above. Man is an animal. But, we're capable of transcending our pedigree. A civilised justice system that is based upon reason and not bloodlust helps us to do so.
@basic.woodworks said:
yeah.. as a guinea pig, maybe. Hard time call for hard way. Crime is ranpid and murder is becoming the sport of choice, Do you honestly believe that keeping Jeoffrey Dommer alive was a good thing?? what about the oklahoma bomber? Benladdin?? Still think capital punishment is such a bad thing??
Make the punishement suit the crime. @5 years as the holiday inn ain't the answer.
Mike RL
At least get the names right.
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@unknownuser said:
As am I. The death penalty's an immoral and primitive concept.
Best said stinkie, I say no...
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goes to show.. the universe didn't give the common sense of a mule to all men.
I think that to all rules there are exceptions. I understand the reason for the right to appeal but if you ain't found new information after a year or 2, odds are you're not gonna. The courts should definitely have a say as to whether a person deserves capitals punishment and there should be guidelines to avoid abuse of power but in the same token, as to my earlier post, some people really don't deserve to live and each breath they take in air that could be used for someone who needs it and an affront to the survivors affected by the commission of the crime. Should a man be put to death for accidentally killing someone in a fight where he was defending himself .. absolutely not. Should a man be killed for rapping and killing a child.. oooooh you betcha!!!
my opinion
Mike RL
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Honestly,
Some of the answers here in this thread are just too shocking for me.
Seriously, I need to keep it closed, as I want to keep believing we have nice and peaceful people here.
I really get a bad feeling when browsing this thread, and it is miles away from anything I find important in life. -
Wow, surprise surprise, this topic managed to get everyone riled up.
Next week: Abortion? Good or bad?
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@kwistenbiebel said:
I want to keep believing we have nice and peaceful people here.
I tell people I live a 'sheltered life'. Living on a predominantly rural island with a low population in a relatively safe country, I do feel quite sheltered from violence.
When I think of how people here would react to stumbling on an intruder in their home, the first thing that comes to mind is they would ask the intruder "Hi, can I help you?". They would try to talk the person into leaving peacefully -- and chances are the intruder would leave with a wave. Of course some folks would blow up but I really think they would be a minority.
On American tv shows we often see the stereotypical rural 'pa' reaching for his gun to go out to 'greet' the stranger seen coming up the driveway. I hope that doesn't really happen. It certainly doesn't happen here - where 'pa' would be more likely to go out and find out the life story of the stranger, offer a cold drink, and any help the person might need.
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Most all of us here have been a victim of a crime of one sort or other. Robbery, the home intrusion is a crime of violence can also be a sex crime that if a opportunity presents leads to something even more hideous. My feeling is that most petty burglers are habitual ones. Drug addicts hooked on the yam yam. While I have never seen one in the act I think that my tactic would be to be a good witness first. If my family were in the home we have a phraise "Go see grampa Chuck" AKA bad guy run.
Would I pull the tough guy card from the get go? No.
Would I be sizing him up and searching for angles and weighing my odds. Yes
Would I make verbal contact? NO You say much more in some cases by saying nothing.
If I were in combat with him and controlling him would I beat him to a pulp? That would make me the same as him. Violent. I hope not.Now if I were locked in mortal combat with a crazed freak who was not going to quit. Then yes I think I know enough about myself to know that I would Not stop until one of us could not continue.
But adrenalin is definatly a good high. Lets hope that we never have to turn the glad for that purpose. Save it for the good times. Unless your idea of a good time is a kicking A**. Modelhead
GoD
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Though very passionate in m beliefs, I am, and have been described as a gentle man. I have been throughout Canada, US and most of the northern South-American continent in my my youth. I have been in situations and lived through and survived things I would not wish on my worst enemy (not that I have any) no.. no surviving enemies at all.. just kidding
Seriously though, as much as we all would like to think we know how we would react in any given situation, I know from some experience that what we actually do can differ from our "would do" by leaps and bond.I am a peaceful man (6'3" and ~250lbs). But I am a believer that in a potential hazardous position you first pull out the iron fist, then the velvet glove. In one incident, I found a young man breaking into my work truck. I yanked him out and slammed his head into the side of the box and roughed him up a bit. An hour later, I was buying him a meal at a nearby greasy spoon while waiting for the Mounties to show up. He waited with me, knowing they e=were coming. We talked for a while. I even waited for him after giving my statement and drove him home (if one could call it that). He ended up working off the damage he did to my truck and stayed on for about eight months, until he decide o go home to Ontario. To this day, to my knowledge, he's stayed out of trouble. But I do know that he is the exception to the rule.
I have to protect what is mine and my family because it's my primary "job" and because no one else will. The velvet glove comes out, afterward, in case there's a chance the "offender" can be rehabilitated. But we now live in an age where people get shot in broad day light just to serve an initiation for gang-bangers. We have to do what we must.
Again.. my opinion
Mike RL
By the way, Jackson. I had a good chuckle at your smart*** post.
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@solo said:
There are plenty convincing reasons against the use of capital Punishment:
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Denial of basic right - According to Humans Right Association capital punishment overrules our most basic human right - the right to life. Human life has fundamental value. The blessedness of human life is denied by the death penalty. Live is precious.
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The possibility of error – Later investigations revealed many convicted individuals innocent which got death penalty in the past, and have been pardoned. Recent DNA investigation studies have shown the same thing.
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Unfair Judgment - Generally, it is observed that Capital punishment is inflicted unduly on the poor and minorities. If you follow the data of these victims, you will find that the mentally ill, poor and people belonging to minorities form a large chunk of the total number. You can also notice a kind of racial discrimination this happens due to varied reasons. Because the poor can offer very low compensation the defense lawyers are often incompetent, resulting in losing the case. Due to prejudice and bias, poor people, and people from minority sections become soft target for such capital punishments, as unrestricted discretion has offered to District attorney. If any one wants to appeal then it becomes a burdensome process for him often resulting in denial of justice.
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Lack of Deterrence - The purpose of any punishment should be deterrence from repeating the same act. But, according to the statistics available, the death penalty has not been effective in controlling the homicide rate. The studies have revealed the shocking truth that executions actually increase the murder rate. That means the capital punishment does not deter violent crime. According to a New York Times study, the last 20 years witnessed 48% homicide rate in states with the implementation of capital punishment compared to 23% in the states without capital punishment.
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The prolonged uncertainty – The validity to the deterrence argument is annulled by the delays, endless appeals, retrials, and technicalities that keep persons predestined to capital punishment waiting for execution for years. In fact, we are not competent enough to carry out execution. This uncertainty and incompetence offers another great injustice. It is itself cruel and a form of torture.
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Justifying circumstances - Sometimes, persons suffering from emotional trauma, abandonment, violence, neglect or destructive social environment commit such heinous crimes. These mitigating situations can have devastating effect on their humanity. So, it is unfair to hold them fully responsible for their crimes. It is our communal responsibility to show some sympathy to some extent.
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By giving capital punishment, the family of the victim is permanently traumatized and victimized. They are often punished by their loved ones without their fault, even though they are innocent.
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Effects on society – Capital Punishment is itself a premeditated murder. This is unacceptable even it is inflicted by state authority as it lowers the value of life. In fact, such act can only brutalize the society. "Revenge is essential" can become a society attitude. By witnessing such acts, our own mental makeup starts believing that violence is necessary to curb the wrongdoings.
In conclusion, capital punishment is a moral dishonor. The mockery is that the very civilizations that have no right to impose it, are in particular leading the traditions of capital punishments.
The economic malfunctions and cultural diseases in those very societies contribute to the violence. So, instead of inflicting Capital punishment, it’s our duty to provide opportunities for all people to accomplish a good life in a rational culture.
As Most Rev. David B. Thompson, Bishop of Charleston, S.C. said, "Capital punishment feeds the cycle of violence in society by pandering to a lust for revenge. It brutalizes us, and deadens our sensitivities to the precious nature of every single human life."
Jayashree Pakhare
This is getting to be a long debate and as usual it seems that we all have our own fixed views on these big issues.
But I can't help making just a few quick responses to this post.-
What about the right to life of the victim?
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As mentioned in my previous post we already agree to many things that involve the possible loss of innocent life.
Why adopt a different position with regard to capital punishment. I am always amazed at the mental somersaults that liberal thinking can indulge in. They don't like capital punishment because of the possible loss of innocent life, but ask them if we were right to go to war with Nazi Germany and they respond with "of course, it was for the greater good". So they can come to terms with the loss of innocent lives when it suits them. -
If your referring to the poor in Western civilisations then poor is difficult to define. There is practically no circumstances where people here have to kill just to survive. If I only own a Ford Focus, am I deprived (poorer) because you own a Mercedes? If so, does this provide a "reason" for me shooting you and stealing your car? Is the unfairness of the capitalist system the cause of my actions or my greed? Is it all society's fault or my own?
According to government statistics people from minority sections are responsible for more murders than is proportionate to their numbers. More murderers come from these groups and that's why a disproportionate amount of them face the death sentence in the US. Why? That is an entire debate in itself. -
Well, I know I have used "according to the statistics" myself, but we all know they can be made to "prove" anything. However, on this particular point I would suggest that due to the long legal games that are played out that prevent executions taking place the deterrent value of capital punishment has been nullified. Most criminals simply don't believe it will happen to them because if you play the game right you can avoid it. So even if states have capital punishment available to them everyone knows its unlikely to be used. That's why its no deterrent.
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This point shows only how the legal profession needs a massive overhaul. This is a completely separate issue.
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This simply lists the many various circumstances under which people may kill. For these the charges of manslaughter or diminished responsibility (or the American equivalent) are available . No one suggests the death penalty be imposed under these circumstances.
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Sorry, this point made no sense to me.
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I disagree. Capital Punishment does the exact opposite of lowering the value of life. It confirms that the taking of innocent human life is the ultimate crime and those guilty of it will pay the ultimate price with their own life. What brutalizes society is seeing the perpetrators of these acts escaping justice. Justice not revenge, that is all most people want. Our own mental makeup should tell us that violence should always be the last resort. But sometimes it has to be resorted to. All the history of mankind shows this to be true. Pretending otherwise is to live in la-la land.
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@unknownuser said:The economic malfunctions and cultural diseases in those very societies contribute to the violence. So, instead of inflicting Capital punishment, it’s our duty to provide opportunities for all people to accomplish a good life in a rational culture.
"This assumes crime is all societies fault. Millions of people who are economically deprived lead good honest lives without ever hurting anyone. Many who have had a "privileged" upbringing have committed terrible acts.
People commit murder in socialist and capitalist societies. Most of them can find many reasons about why they themselves are not responsible for their acts. It is always someone else's fault. It is individuals who commit these acts and they should be held responsible for their actions.@unknownuser said:
As Most Rev. David B. Thompson, Bishop of Charleston, S.C. said, "Capital punishment feeds the cycle of violence in society by pandering to a lust for revenge. It brutalizes us, and deadens our sensitivities to the precious nature of every single human life."
It is a complete waste of time quoting a religious source. You can always find one that supports your own argument.
But as I am an atheist I have no interest in what any of them have to say.Regards
Mr S"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child."
Cicero -
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I remember Ruth Ellis being hanged.
I remember Sydney Silverman's bill being passed in the UK.
I remember it replaced hanging with life imprisonment for murder.
I remember that life imprisonment was be be just that LIFE.But now, seven years then release?
Life should mean life, die in prison, no further contact with the outside world. -
Many times I have heard "religion and politics don't mix".
Religion and politics mixed, what a terrifying thought. In retrospect, this is what we have here. The subject of capital punishment is pretty much governed by the two. On one hand the strong religious voice of the New Testament part of the Bible, and on the other, the law, based on that same voice. Although it has been amended, lord knows how much and how often, over the years.
I've also heard "lock on door only keep the honest people out".
Given the opportunity, a dishonest many will take a $20.00 for the counter at a restaurant, if no one is watching, yet he won't open the till. A little over a century ago, we hung cattle rustlers and horse thieves on a regular basis. The argument could be that this law was ridiculous as we still had a lot of rustlers and horse thieves around and it did not deter them. I think what we should be considering is not how many people we hung but how many we did not because of the fear of the punishment. Will there always be murders, rapists and pedophiles?? It's probably safe to say yes. Would there be a considerate amount less of it? Almost certainly yes. Whether it's due to media or society in general or our own upbringing, a lot of us have been almost desensitized to the act of killing someone. How many people still look to hire someone to kill their spouse, business partner or whoever else. If the sentence was death instead of 10 to 15 for conspiring, how many of those would think of it, sure, but abandon the idea out of fear.
May be the oldest saying in the wold: "Putting the fear of God into him". Implying the "hell" card. If you .. blah-blah, you're going to hell and therefore putting the fear of the wrath of God. Why not put the fear of the law into people's minds. The wrath of the justice system. Fear of consequences. A young man I know, in retribution, went to another young man's house, rang the door bell, waited for the other to nearly open the door. He then kick the door and knocked the other back, sprayed him in the face with mace, to blind and incapacitate him, the hacked and slash him with a blooming meat cleaver. He waited for the other to get his bearing, somewhat, and told him "I told you I'd get you back". He then walked away and left him for dead. When he was found, within an hour later, he was nearly dead, with his gut literally spilling out onto the floor.
To guarantee a quick conviction, they reduced the charge from attempted murder to aggravated assault. !4 months later, I saw him at a Tim Hortons doughnut shop having coffee with his buddies. Oh yeah, he got the other young man because he had told a couple of other guys where he could be found, not realizing that the reason they were looking for him was because he'd stolen a lot of money from them.
So tall me .. is the justice system really working? Knowing that most "career" criminals escalate, the end prize really should be harsh. Never mind God, as few even believe, we have to put th fear of the law into them.
My long winded opinion.
Mike RL
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My first night out downtown, when stationed in Thailand, I was surrounded by a dozen or more 5-7 year old boys...all hands on, all over me, hollering: "Gimme Baht, gimme Baht!" Since I had been warned about this at orientation (and because I hadn't yet that night succumbed to the demon rum :`) I quickly jambed my hand into my wallet pocket and held on for dear life: swinging my body left and right to shake off the kids as I ran to get free. I lost my watch, but saved my wallet (money was not the issue...losing my military ID would have cost me an Article 15).
The next week (this time a sheet or two to the breeze) I was looking over a street vendor's watch choices (I needed one afterall) and spotted mine. Of course I started making a rather loud big deal about this, and as my longer time in country buddy pulled me away, hushing me sternly, I noticed the look on the vender's face (I have never forgotten that look...which probably saved my life a couple of times during my pool playing days): there was some fear, yes, but mostly it was hard, determined, and awfully cold.
My buddy explained I could get stabbed over that $15 dollar Timex because his having it could get him 5 years in jail. I didn't fully understand until months later when I stumbled on the local Thai jail: 5'x5' cages, 4' tall, stacked 3 high.
Since then I haven't been able to swallow the deterrent argument except for white collar crime. I also believe our whole criminal justice system is mostly a failure, so of course application of capital punishment is poop too. That said:
I like dogs, they are interesting creatures with many traits I respect and/or admire...but:
Rabid and feral dogs need to be put down fast.
Vicious dogs who have attacked others (tasted blood) need to be put down without question.
Aggressive dogs, who have threatened others, need to be restrained and retrained...but if they don't respond quickly: put down as well.
Some breeds of dogs need close supervision and watchful concern until the viciousness and aggression is breed back out of them...and if they turn, they too will need to be put down.I also like humans, they are interesting creatures with many traits I respect and/or admire...but:
...
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A good friend of mine was murdered when I was a senior in high school. He was killed with a baseball bat with a shot to the head... all because he didn't have drugs these punks were looking for! Forgive me... but he was only sentenced to 5 years in prison! Put yourself in my shoes for one minute...
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I give you props, Tom. Funny, honest, to the point (the last part at least) and true.
Mike RL
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