Re: orchestra pit in a church

lapx

I have a client that is interested in doing an orchestra pit.
Anyone have any experience in doing one. The Music director seems to think they can not do with out one if they are going to empasize a high quality acoustic atmosphere. Can't today's technology offset the sound problems he insist will occur if the pit is not in the project. I just think a pit would be more trouble than it's worth...
i.e. pit filler panel design and storage, removable rails etc...not to mention getting equipment in and out of the pit.
If anyone has had any experience in this area you input is greatly appreciated.

thanks,
lapx

p.s.
I hate that google moved the boards around. There are just too many places to go for info, too scattered. Also, I think even on this board there seem to be too many "branches on the tree". I think there are others who have given up posting and looking as I have. It just hasn't been the same;(
I guess I should make this one of my favorites for now?

John Sayers

I suggest you listen to the musical director.

@unknownuser said:

Can't today's technology offset the sound problems

he obviously knows more about sound than you do

cheers
john

lapx

John,

Sorry, I seem to have struck a chord with you;) Do you have any expertise in the area? I looking for an honest answer to justify building an orchestra pit in the church setting. Just facts to back it up. Do you have any experience in this area? I guess one could make an argument for not using it as well. I'm looking for pros and cons.

Thanks

boofredlay

Well I cannot say I have ever designed an orchestra pit but I have played in many. The pit is not going to determine the acoustics, the way the building is designed will. Some places I have played sounded great without a pit and others were horrible with one.

Some things to think about with your client:

Will the pit be movable, up and down? The most useful pits will raise and lower.
The size of the "orchestra". If you design too small or for their current capacity then expanding is a nightmare.
Cost cost cost. If this is a church which it sounds like it is, then I can bet my left arm that an orchestra pit will be one of the first things to be cut.

Even though John's comment was not very nice he is correct in that the technology cannot do much to improve the acoustics of a building. Actually they would amplify the problems.

John Sayers

Yes - I was a bit abrupt on reading back my post. I appologise, it's my aussie directness.

It's been my observation that architects see church sound as Cathedrals with long reverberation times whereas musicians see it the other way around. Modern musicians want a tight sound, short reverb time, clean definition between instruments etc. You can't achieve that in an open reverberant space like a large church, but you can in a tight acoustic pit.

In that Mix article you will note that they did use the pit, but for the reasons I mentioned above. The pit can be acoustically treated to absorb the loud sounds created in it, like drums, bass and guitars which leaves you free to treat the hall as an acoustic space suitable for large choirs etc.

My point is that sound systems can't solve acoustic problems. If the drums in an acoustic space are louder than everything else, which they usually are, no PA can make them quieter but a properly designed pit can. When you put 20 musicians up against 20 singers the band will always win

Unforuately you didn't give us any idea of what size church you are referring to or how big the orchestra is.

Do I have experience in this area? Yes - I design recording studios and have been a recording engineer producer for over 30 years. I also wrote the School of Audio Engineering (SAE) reference material on acoustics http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html and operate a forum on studio design and construction. see my signature.

If I can be of assistance in your project I'd be happy to help.

cheers
john

boofredlay

John, Good on ya mate.

tomsdesk

@unknownuser said:

Cost cost cost. If this is a church which it sounds like it is, then I can bet my left arm that an orchestra pit will be one of the first things to be cut.

This would be my major comment (before reading thru the thread...interesting indeed, Lapx, John). Once you run the code issues, the HC issues, etc, then do a cost estimate...the project will either be more fun than you first thought, or still so as some alternative to the pit comes forward. Best feed or kill the money snake first.

And then, of course, keep us posted (:`) Sounds like fun to watch!
Best, Tom.

John Sayers

you are right Tom - it might not necessarily end up being a pit but to ignore the acoustic aspect of the modern church wishing to perform modern church music is surely going to lead to ongoing problems which in the long term could cost more to resolve than if one tried to avoid it in the first place.

lapx

This is a copy of the plan. It seats about 2500 people.
I need to check how many people are going in the pit.

By the way I did work on one of these years ago but it was for a full fledge theater seating about 600 persons. It was very challenging to detail. I recall the walls had padded panels,removable guard rails, and angle irons for supporting panels that covered the pit when not in use. lot's of operational issues to deal with as well. Although, they may do some theatrics the majority of use will be for concerts and choir.

floorplan copy.jpeg

Baker518

Several thoughts come to mind:

Is the floor sloped?
Are you using theater type seating?
What are the 2 areas behind the podium?
How high are the walls?
If sound is an issue, why not change the acoustical background or the design of the stage?

I have a design of a church that will seat about 5000 people, somewhat similar on the floor plan. It covers about 1 1/3 acres under a clear-span roof. Let me know if you want to see it, I am still redrawing it in SU from DeltaCad.

lapx

Hello Mike,

Yes, the floor is sloped
Yes, we are using theater type seating.
or something called "pew optima" which are very expensive.
we like the function but the price is high;(
What seats would you recommend?
choir room and support spaces on the other side of walls.
a retractable choir stand for aprox 100 persons is on stage.
Its a 2 story space. seats rise up to balcony seating on the second level.
I would say about 22'.
The stage sound is a big issue with the choir director and the band.
As I understand it the house sound is not a problem.

not registered yet

I once spent a while on the road as a musician. I had a chance to look at the drawings for a large church with a pit. There was a completly different set of drawings for the sound room or pit room (the whole room). The builder I met said it was like painting...every surface and every object had to be created with a sound surface or shape and there was quite a palette of designs available depending on the default sound they wished to create. After that there where a set of movable baffles and texture drapes that could be used to change the sound all of these themselves created to a sound recipe of some sort depending on what the client wanted to be able to achieve.

It struck me that his paint analogy was a great one. I know it was a very expensive proposition and this guy was a specialist at creating sound rooms as he called them.

P: Isaac