Podium 2.0?
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I was merely trying to point out that many rendering app developers produce manuals that, well, aren't that good. Or just plain suck.
I was also trying to point out that you boys need a better mats manual. While I can see a lot of love, dedication and work went into the one you got now, it's virtually unreadable for novice users. I'm not the worst of judges in this regard: I do know a bit about rendering by now, and I write for a living.
I won't mention what I think of the Maxwell manual.
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What about the Vray manual?
It could have been written in chinese and I would have remembered the same amount of info.
Manuals of render engines mostly are techno flyers.
One learns the software by trial and error, and once you get stuck, you try to plough through the manual hoping to find a clue of what you are looking for
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lol I read that one too. Gave me an enormous headache. Made me decide NOT to buy Vray. (I'm not joking either.)
Seriously, if I were the head of a software firm, and the 'manuals guy (or gal)' came up with something like the Vray manual, I'd get me another 'manuals guy (or gal)' .
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so how do you see the ideal render manual ? (picking out your brain
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I know the question wasnt directed at me, but im going to answer anyway because i too have often been left floundering by poorly written manuals.
I tihnk the problem is thta the authors often get bogged down in excessive technical language, this is fine if your experienced in such things (as the authors often are) but is really daunting for an inexperienced user. Ireckon the way to get around this is to make sure that for every feature, you have a 'newb' bit and an 'advanced' bit.
In the newb bit: a simple description of what the tool/option does WITH PICTURES
In the advanced bit: eveything else that you would normally find in a manual.
I reckon a very quick little 'getting started' guide never goes amiss either.
And one last thing, i reckon itd be cool if it was seperated in to 2 manuals, one for materials and one for everything else, as materials seems to be one of the more complicated things to understand, and so by seperting it out youd hopefully emphasise their importance to the new user and make the whole thing a bit more digestible.
And if anyone manages even half of that stuff id be impressed!
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@unknownuser said:
so how do you see the ideal render manual ? (picking out your brain
)In my opinion,
As Remus says, a 'Quick start' guide is a good way to get someone new to the software started.
When I buy a new piece of hardware (Blueray player, etc..) I am not familiar with, those 'quick guides' are the first thing I inspect.After speed reading the 'Quick guide' there is room for experimenting.
Only after some time, and mostly when getting stuck, I would turn to the full manual.
A good full manual for me is one that is written in chapters.
For instance: material setup, render settings etc...
Also a 'case study' section in a manual is great.By the way and not less important:
Lately I have the habit to first search for video tutorials on the web (youtube, veoh, dailymotion) as that really is THE BEST WAY to learn in my opinion.
It's a very relaxed way for getting to know basic stuff about new software.So my biggest tip towards tutorials for Podium would be:
Making a video tutorial section at Youtube (Veoh is better for hires) where people can watch tutorial episodes.
Preferrably with 'official' video tuts, but also with 'unofficial' case studies by users (tips and tricks etc...)
With Camtasia as screen capture software, this kind of making video tuts has gotten really easy and for all to pick up. -
Allright. Some notes. Suppose Iâm someone whoâs used SU for some time but whoâs never rendered anything.
⢠Start from square one. A good manual assumes the reader knows nothing.
⢠Donât confuse me. Introduce new concepts in an orderly manner, one by one. Do NOT try to explain one still unknown conecpt by introducing a second one which I havenât heard of before either.
⢠Keep things organized and transparant. Hence: write âin paragraphsâ. And structure them like this: introduction, explanation, conclusion. Use the same structure for chapters and sub-chapters. Take a look at the âFor Dummiesâ books to see what I mean.
⢠SHOW me what you mean. Images are very important. âIf you change this parameter to 89 %, the roughness of the material will increaseâ, may be a remark that makes sense to a more advanced user, but not to me. Show me what my image will look like if I change the parameter.
⢠Theoryâs nice, to a certain extent. But comprehensible tutorials are far better. Make sure thereâs lots of them. They should all concentrate on one particular problem or aspect. They should be, errr, consecutive: 2 should pick up were 1 left off, 3 where 2 left off et cetera. Conclude with one big all-in-one tut.
⢠Take into account thereâs more to rendering than rendering alone. Thereâs making seamless textures, making bump maps, post processing, preparing the model et cetera. Include some info on that to. Thisâll give your manual an edge. (âMaking Renders From Start To Finish With Taviâ)
⢠Donât be afraid to repeat yourself. Suppose youâve written what the âGoombababaâ button does in chapter one (it ups the âKahoogooâ, resulting in a crisper render). Then in, say, chapter 5, donât just write âup the Kahoogooâ. Write: âup the Kahoogoo, by clicking the Goombaba button. Thisâll result in a crisper render.â -
man! did you guys jack this thread or what? we started discussing what we wanted in podium 2.0 and now you're arguing over what is the best kind of manual! can we pleas get back on topic?
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Well a realy good manual would be high on my wanted lis for podium 2...
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@igor said:
man! did you guys jack this thread or what? we started discussing what we wanted in podium 2.0 and now you're arguing over what is the best kind of manual! can we pleas get back on topic?
Relax Igor,
Note that the developer of Podium (TBD) has joint the discussion of this thread.
If there was anything he would want to spill about the new Podium version, he would have done it already.
As it is a completely new engine behind v2.0, I expect the first release to be a 'basic' but solid release. Some functionality (animation etc..?) probably will be added later on .
(I am guessing this, as I don't have the first hand info.) -
If I remember correctly, El Sticko Grande commented on the P forum some time ago that 2.0 indeed wouldn't do animation as the team wants to concentrate on the core features first.
Not a bad approach, as far as I'm concerned. First walk, then run.
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@unknownuser said:
so how do you see the ideal render manual ? (picking out your brain
)Tavi, something like this.....
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@unknownuser said:
âup the Kahoogoo, by clicking the Goombaba button. â
That's where I always screw up--the goombaba button.
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@unknownuser said:
⢠Donât be afraid to repeat yourself. Suppose youâve written what the âGoombababaâ button does in chapter one (it ups the âKahoogooâ, resulting in a crisper render). Then in, say, chapter 5, donât just write âup the Kahoogooâ. Write: âup the Kahoogoo, by clicking the Goombaba button. Thisâll result in a crisper render.â
That was really funny stuff Stinkie.
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No laughing. Serious matters are being discussed here.
Kirk wouldn't have sh*t himself.
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
âup the Kahoogoo, by clicking the Goombaba button. â
That's where I always screw up--the goombaba button.
i do hope they take time to comment on the parameters relating to the Kahoogoo function...
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@edson said:
i do hope they take time to comment on the parameters relating to the Kahoogoo function...
It's simple, really. The Goombaba controls the amount of Kahoogoo. And both influence the Wagi-wagi.
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i have never seen anything like Vray for Sketchup's manual. it comes in pdf and has 95 fully illustrated pages. everything is explained to the minutest detail. it makes it very difficult for anyone not to know how to use that app. i was really very impressed by it.
its name is V-Ray_for_SketchUp_Manual.pdf. you can see it on the web here.
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I am test-driving the VRAY for SU right now and I do have the manual. it seems very thorough. That is good. IT IS however. . .95 Freakin' pages!!! that is a bit of a deterrent. The beauty of podium is its intuitive interface. VRAY is cool and I hope to get really good at it, but I am so busy I haven't been able to devote any time to it.
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In any case, and on the more serious side, manual and tuts shouldn't be like this: http://think.maxwellrender.com/how_to_control_maxwell_material_editor-12.html
"How To Control Maxwell Material Editor" - yup, that's the title. I quite like Maxwell, but the stuff NL's puts on its "Think" site is, for the most part, rather useless. (Edit: But things seem to be moving in the right direction a little, as Sheik's doing a couple of basic tuts for SU users.)
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