Plugin Store, Plugins and Premium Membership...
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Hi everyone,
There are two threads that I read recently that lead me to start this one:
One started by Ashcott, about a simple plugin and the fact that work should be paid:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=54082&start=30#p494776
Other about Plugin Store, wich derived to Premium Sketchucation Membership and it's own purpose. It has some excellent contributions from some top SCF contributors:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=54456&start=90#p497007
So let's start with Ashcott who has payed for the development of a plugin that he wasn't able to develop, and then shared it with the community. Since then he got the plugin further developed with some community ideas. What should he now do?
The answer is everywhere already but I think it's worth to be thinked over and here it goes:
The first option would be to charge a small fee for the plugin, with the upgraded functions. A crowd raise fund was also suggested, I would suggest that maybe a way to go is to have the free version and the paid one.
His problem seems to be that paid plugins that some how seem not to work in our community.
These fees should be really well balanced. The fact is that there are amazing plugins, both complex and simple, that really change what sketchup is capable of, and most of them are free/donation based.
I am not an usual donator myself, because I'm in a complete financial mess (like many architects I know). However Sketchup and Sketchucation are really helping me get out of my mess and I'm pushing more and more architects to this same "Sketchup" road. So I'll definetely thank with money when I'll have the chance and will be happy to do it. It's just that, right now, I'm doing what I can and that is not much.
There are a lot of examples of developers that only develop free plugins but accept donations, there are other people that don't ask for donations, others that develop a lot of free plugins but then, now and then, develop some that are paid because of some reason (usually because they're extraordinary, even for Sketchucation standards). There are, of course, commercial only plugins and developers... This is really a matter that must concern only to the developer, however money matters to everyone! If the plugin is worth it and the price is right what is the problem in charging?
Even if I am in a financial mess, I had to pay for Sketchup Pro and paid for a plugin that I felt an absolute need for: (Thea Render) wich has a very fair price considering its huge quality!
If some of the developers around would ask money for some of their plugins I'd really have to pay them, as their plugins are fundamental to my everyday life.
Fundamental and handy are very different things though! Just like having money or not is also very different. I need to have my fundamental tools for working, so I pay for them, if I don't have a fundamental need I can opt to have something or not. If I have more money I'll have more things even if I don't need them as much or I can live without them. However, what is different with Sketchup/Sketchucation is that I am allowed not to pay. I must say that I don't like the idea of using other people's work without paying them, however right now, if I am allowed to, I opt not to, as I have very little money. However I feel the need to do whatever I can and Sketchucation gives us some means for that. In the forum I am contributing little by little, everytime a bit more, helping the most I can. Outside, I'm advertising Sketchup to everyone and Sketchucation as the fundamental forum for any sketchuper... I don't feel it's enough though and I feel the absolute need to do more.
It's a natural feeling for most people around and that's maybe the reason why sketchucation is so successful. People talk of the community behind Sketchup as one of it's main assets. That community is Sketchucation!
This is very important! How to deal with the quality and quantity of content in this forum and Sketchucation Plugin Store and how to reward people that contribute the most for this community (developers and forum admins).
This is the question that is trying to be adressed by Sketchucation Premium Accounts. And I'd like to contribute to this idea by starting this thread.
My suggestion is that at the store, there could be free versions of plugins available to anyone and free "enhanced" versions of the same plugins available only for Premium Members.
With worthy enough enhancements that could just bring that small/big edge that makes the difference only needed for advanced users. It is those users who would easily become Premium members beacause they know the difference and feel the need.
If access to enhanced or most recent plugins would be held only by Premium Members, then maybe SCF would have more Premium members, more income and maybe that income could be applied to get some plugins further developed, wich in turn would create better advantages for Premium members. But what about free members?
This should in no way make Free members be out of the loop. The current base of free plugins is awesome already and this could be slowly upgraded too! After a period those plugins that were being used only by premium members would become available to everyone. Maybe it would happen only if a new version would be released. It would be just like what happened with SCF Plugin Store plugin wich, in it's Beta stage, was only available to Premiums. It makes perfect sense... Premiums know what they are doing and pay for the right to test new/advanced stuff, but they have also the responsability to do it. Just as TIG stated on the link above. It's a perfectly reasonable duty/advantage based process.
Imagine something that happened recently with Fredo and Joint Push Pull:
Joint push pull was perfect already. This week Fredo "Push Pulled" it further and made it interactive (among some other even more Bombastic features). However this new plugin is still completely free...!!! Why not have the old JPP still available (as it is...) and this one would only be available to Premium Members? (now it is impossible...) This makes perfect sense to me (Even if I'm no Premium Member).
In a year from now. Fredo would probably develop it even further. Then, if that would happen, why not make some/all of the interactive features free. Those features could be some/all of the ones that at the beggining were only available to premium members. The new features would then only be available for Premium members.
It seems like Fredo needs no motivation to create those amazing plugins, but wouldn't hurt him if he could have an income from premium members. And for guys like me the free versions around are already great! So I wouldn't feel pushed around if someone told me that I could only have an enhanced version of those plugins if I were a Premium member. And If I were a Premium member I would prefer to have access to every enhanced version of plugins, than to have discounts on resources I don't need.
If developers would feel bad about charging for their extra work (why would they?) then they could simply do what they do right now and release their plugins as free/donation based.
Would this professionalize SCF developers? Yes, more or less and why not?
With the tight relationship between SCF and developers that exists already, a payment/distribution method would certainly be easy to arrange, to create income to plugin developers and forum admins. This could all be based on Premium Members payments. Payed plugins and resources would behave as they do nowadays of course. But for redistributing money, SCF could use the statistics already present on Plugin Store, (Was JPP downloaded 5241 times this week only?). If this would be connected to the income Fredo would get as a percentage of the total income generated by SCF Premium Members I would be very happy... That would mean Fredo would probably dedicate himself even more to developing his old and new plugins.
This would certainly be fair to me: I have not much money but I would consider to be a Premium member for sure with this kind of benefit. But if I couldn't or wouldn't then I'd have to wait until I had the chance to get my hands on the features of those new plugins, but isn't it what I do already?
Well it's been a long post but I hope it was at least understandable, and I hope it helps a bit or contributes positively for a better future for us/you all or at least to a nice debate...
So thanks and best regards,
JQL
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If Sketch**Ucation** integrate this eCommerce feature into PluginStore they should be rewarded as well with a percentage of all the sales for further development.
@ashscott said:
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) money is a big motivator. Making it easier for developers to get paid will encourage developers to "push the envelope" even more which will push SketchUp and the whole community forward
The above quote posted here mentions money as a source for motivation to push the envelope and provide the community with polished plugins. This is true but apart form money I think the drive to learn should be the main source of motivation.
This learning factor is sometimes the reason why developers (including myself) offer their plugins for free. Most of my plugins were made possible with the help of other developers and even none developers that provide feedback.
There should be an option to share part of you earnings to the people that contributed to the plugin. This will encourage more teamwork and end up with better & faster product. People don't have to be programers only because a plugin requires more than just code to be good. Here is some example of people that can make plugin better but don't necessarily know how to code ...
- People with good ideas for plugins.
- People with UX design skills.
- People that can make art work for icons & logos.
- People that translate text to other languages.
- People that can make documentation.
- People that can beta test your plugin and report bugs.
- People that recommend your plugin.
- And many more...
For me it would be sad to see developers not to share their knowledge because they want to earn more money with there plugins by hiding their code with SketchUp Scrambler. Or not allowing another developer to make similar plugin by claiming copyright infringement.
Fortunately my experience with the SketchUcation community is been very positive and everyone seems to have the best intention to make SketchUp even better than it already is.
Thanks JQL for bringing this important topic to the table.
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Renderiza,
Thanks for your contribution. You are clearly one of those developers that polishes their simple/complex ideas to any effort... then distribute your work for free! You are not alone here, of course, and that colective effort you guys are putting together is HUGE. Everyone contributes a bit to that, but there seems to be clearly more work from you than from me. That spirit is amazing and Sketchucation managed to create a sucessful environment for development, sharing and knowledge.
The big question for me is how to keep that "open" environment in this community, but also benefit from people that want to and can benefit from their plugin development knowledge. It wouldn't hurt you a bit if besides what you already learn and motivates you, you'd also earn a bit of what the community would manage to give you financially speaking.
Thanks again for your contribution and for your plugins.
JQL
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I think you are still missing the point regarding the purpose of Premium membership, and I feel what you are suggesting would only tear the community apart. People get jealous and annoyed and demanding when they feel it's Us and Them. Already people misconstrue what happens in the premium areas, as you see in the thread you linked to.
Sketchucation should and does make it possible to pay developers through the store, but it shouldn't be seen as the Massive corporate conglomerate selling only to those that are willing to pay. That's what Trimble is for. It is a community that thrives on openness, sharing and participation. It has evolved out of a common interest in development and a thirst for knowledge. It is not a business and the day it becomes one will be the day it starts to die. Premium membership is about helping support the forum so that it can continue to offer an open and honest place for all things sketchup.
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Box,
Thanks for sharing your opinion and though I don't fully agree with you, I definetely share many of your points of view.
@box said:
I think you are still missing the point regarding the purpose of Premium membership, and I feel what you are suggesting would only tear the community apart. People get jealous and annoyed and demanding when they feel it's Us and Them. Already people misconstrue what happens in the premium areas, as you see in the thread you linked to.
The problem with that misconstruction had to do exactly with the way Premium users are being adressed right now. They have access to exclusive parts of the forum - those premium areas - and that is what goes against the fundamental philosophy behind Sketchucation - Full and free access to knowledge and sharing (not only plugins).
What I proposed isn't a system where Premium users would get anything exclusive, but something better, or faster, or free, or just in beta stages, while other users would have to just wait until they could have that access. It's what happened to Plugin Store beta testing stage, so it's happening already. It's like I'm just asking why not extend that to other plugins and make it clear that if you are a Premium User you are imediately elected as beta tester or have like a first user right to plugins.
A thing I consider right now is that there could be also an option for paying to have imediate access to one plugin alone, even if not being a Premium member... but that might be a new idea that I didn't discuss earlier.
@box said:
Sketchucation should and does make it possible to pay developers through the store, but it shouldn't be seen as the Massive corporate conglomerate selling only to those that are willing to pay. That's what Trimble is for. It is a community that thrives on openness, sharing and participation. It has evolved out of a common interest in development and a thirst for knowledge. It is not a business and the day it becomes one will be the day it starts to die. Premium membership is about helping support the forum so that it can continue to offer an open and honest place for all things sketchup.
I'm not saying that, by any means, the things that right now are free, should become payed, and I'm certainly not saying that everything should be payed or Premium. What I'm saying is that plugin developers should be allowed to choose if they would put their new plugins or enhanced versions as Premium users only content, commercial, or free for all. It's a decision that should be made only by them, but that Sketchucation should allow and should create a system more consitent and fair for developers, Premium users and that does not bother every other user.
What seems to me to be dividing the community right now is the exclusive access to Premium Forums. I'm not that interested in having access to those forums, but what the thread seemed to demonstrate (even if TIG rebated it plainly and clearly) is that people are getting the wrong idea from premium users, like it's a private club for hot shots.
Let me say this simply:
You can buy trees, models, textures, tutorials and other stuff at sketchucation. Or you can have a Premium account and have that stuff for free or with good discounts. Nobody is bothered by that and it's clear and simple - Why not extend that to plugins?
What I suggested is that, because plugins are one of the foundations that support this forum, why not go further on this: As plugins are not static stuff, and are evolving continually, why not have a system that makes certain enhancements of plugins, only available to Premium users, and after some time, availble to all... if the developer agrees?
That seems fair to me and not that corporative and capitalistic or over lucrative, though massive is a nice word for discribing what is and should continue to be Skethucation.
I hope I made it clearer now,
Thanks and best regards,
JQL
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There might be some people that have this "Us Against Them" attitude but I have a feeling the majority view premium membership as a way to help SketchUcation grow more than anything.
We all know that time is money and maybe talented developers can't afford to make plugins because they need to provide for their families. Having the community embrace paying a little bit to support developers will have a positive impact. Maybe I am dead wrong and this is the worst idea ever, but we need to give it a shot and take a risk. Lot of mistakes are going to be made, but like it was said before, the willingness to learn is key for this to work.
I will like to make an experiment with a plugin I am currently working on. Not 100% sure how to approach this but I was thinking to test some suggestion JQL posted. Maybe add early access to beta for premium members to see if that motivates people to support SketchUcation by becoming a member(fingers crossed). However the forum topic will be public for everyone to see the progress and also collaborate with ideas. I am little nervous about this but we will see how it goes.
More information soon...
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Oops!
Before publishing the plugin for the experiment I mentioned on the post above, decided to investigate if the idea was already created...Turns out that TIG already has a plugin that accomplished what I had in mind.
When I said lots of mistake were going to be made I didn't realize it was going to be this quickly.
But nevertheless I am glad I found it before taking action because that would of been little more embarrassing.If you were wondering what the idea was here is TIG's plugin Split Donut.
This means I will have to postpone the experiment until I find another idea to work with.
Cheers!
Note: Maybe the code I created can still be useful because it can solve some issues I have with other plugins of mine.
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Renderiza,
No code should be wasted, that's a plugin you should release anyway and probably, with the community feedback, there can be some functions to be added later. You respond very well to suggestions and your plugins gain a lot because of that, without ever loosing their core spirit.
I think there are many suggestions on split face that are very good (I specially like the one from pixero), and maybe this new "split donut" could be added to splitface as an option.
Best regards,
JQL
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Why not raise the premium price a bit and offer 2 or 3 paid plugins.
Every renewal gets one more.
Like a coupon.
Split that with the developers.
I'm for anything that helps. -
@jql said:
No code should be wasted, that's a plugin you should release anyway and probably, with the community feedback, there can be some functions to be added later. You respond very well to suggestions and your plugins gain a lot because of that, without ever loosing their core spirit.
I think there are many suggestions on split face that are very good (I specially like the one from pixero), and maybe this new "split donut" could be added to splitface as an option.
Well you read my mind because the plugin I had in mind that could use this code was FaceSplit!
Already added the new feature to version 1.0.3 which solves the problem it was having with convex faces. Now you can get nice result if there is one inner loop inside face like a window for example. There is still progress too be made because if there is more than one inner loops the face will not be split. This problem also happens with TIG's plugin and it will not be easy to solve.
Pixero's suggestion is very good indeed! Hope to give that one a go very soon.
@jpalm32 said:
Why not raise the premium price a bit and offer 2 or 3 paid plugins.
Every renewal gets one more.
Like a coupon.
Split that with the developers.
I'm for anything that helps.That can be a good idea but SketchUcation will need the support of developers for that to work out.
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Loving the discussion.
@renderiza said:
This is true but apart form money I think the drive to learn should be the main source of motivation.
I would love to share your perspective, it is the way this should function in an ideal world. Unfortunately things aren't ideal and, as any economist will tell you human beings respond to incentives
If we want to push the Sketchup envelope then streamlining the system for getting incentives to the people who make new, exciting and useful things is the most efficient way to do it.
The iOS app store is a prime example.
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