Golden Section: Debunked

sorgesu · 16 Jan 2013, 16:03

So it appears that the truth is that Leonardo did NOT use the Golden Section in designing either his compositions or in finding proportions of the human body,
that the Parthenon was built before "phi" was even discovered and that no matter how you slice it the proportions do NOT align with a golden section.

What IS true is that PHI is often found mysteriously in nature, but people do not automatically draw a golden section rectangle as preference, that architects, when surveyed, are convinced that the next guy is using it for his designs, but they don't.

Anyway, here is the very interesting article:
http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.ca/2013/01/mythbusting-golden-mean-part-1.html

jeff hammond · 16 Jan 2013, 16:39

interesting article.. thanks

@unknownuser said:

.. and that no matter how you slice it the proportions do NOT align with a golden section.

just for discussion sake, this alone doesn't show that the designer didn't in fact use golden sections..
construction logistics must of been very difficult back then and i'm willing to assume there were quite a few (major) on-site adjustments taking place regardless of what the designer called for

sorgesu · 16 Jan 2013, 17:02

Did you actually read the scholarly article attached? It really shows empirically that the golden Section was not used.

pbacot · 16 Jan 2013, 17:41

"that architects, when surveyed, are convinced that the next guy is using it for his designs, but they don't."

That's a fun fact!

Hmm, a Greek conspiracy....

Chris Fullmer · 16 Jan 2013, 17:58

I believe it completely.

I've had art and arch. teachers pull put images of famous painting and buildings and overly some golden ration on top and say look how closely this conforms, obviously this famous artist/architect was using the golden ratio. But it never precisely fits, it just loosely conforms to the golden ratio. And in my mind I've always wanted point out that they never fit perfectly.

I do believe its something in our minds, or our culture, or nature that pushes many of us to prefer that approximate ratio. But I think the golden ratio is more of a way of describing a phenomon we do subconsciously than it is a secret trick that all designers and artists follow on purpose.

A study of non-golden-ratio architecture and art would be interesting. What other typical rules exist and are followed? What cultures tend to not adhere to that ratio? I'm sure I could probably go google that and find existing studies

pilou · 16 Jan 2013, 18:05

jeff hammond · 16 Jan 2013, 18:15

@sorgesu said:

Did you actually read the scholarly article attached? It really shows empirically that the golden Section was not used.

yes. i read it.. then quoted one small part of what you said (i removed it from it's surrounding context)… then said 'for the sake of discussion..'

oh.. never mind..

.

david_h · 16 Jan 2013, 19:42

I didn't read it.

I happen to like the Golden Section. We didn't always get along. . .didn't always agree. .. but hey . .that's life. We've been friends for a long time and I refuse to just throw him over because some literati now decides he is passe. We've had a lot of fun times together.

Call me a bitter clinger.

sorgesu · 16 Jan 2013, 19:49

Sorry Jeff.

The first thing I did was try and fit that Golden Spiral on the Nautilus and found that it just doesn't fit at all. That is why they never show them superimposed. One can easily see that that one just doesn't work

Chris, I know that when they built Cathedrals they took all kinds of ratios and numbers from Bible stories and made the Cathedrals fit those proportions.
I've seen some analysis of paintings that have all sorts of geometric patterning imposed on them halves and thirds and bisected circles and so on. I'm not sure if they were really designed that way or if people really like to impose "systems" on that which we wish to emulate.

david_h · 16 Jan 2013, 20:10

@chris fullmer said:

A study of non-golden-ratio architecture and art would be interesting. What other typical rules exist and are followed? What cultures tend to not adhere to that ratio? I'm sure I could probably go google that and find existing studies

Well of course the Japanese used a unit called the Ken which was their kind of a bay system. I think it had something to do with the tatami mats they slept on or some such other. Either that or it was based on the Ken Doll--because he is like a god in ancient Japanese culture.

Ironically .. .he is Perfectly proportioned to the GOlden Section. Very Vetruvian if you ask me

sorgesu · 16 Jan 2013, 20:15

Daniel · 17 Jan 2013, 14:14

They used the golden section...they didn't use the golden section...kinda reminds me of architecture school, when everyone was trying to come up with a concept (you know, that idea that your design is supposed to be based on) 30 minutes before jury.

Jean Lemire · 17 Jan 2013, 18:03

Hi folks.

The Golden Ratio has some utility. See the scenes related to Icosaedron in this SU file.

Platonic solids.skp
V6 for Pilou.

Platonic solids V6.skp
Just ideas

mitcorb · 17 Jan 2013, 19:01

I recall something I read decades ago about Fibonacci and golden sections in which a study was done, evidently to bolster the concept of the ideal ratio: A simple test in which people were asked to divide a vertical line segment on a piece of paper. I do not recall the conditions or how the question was asked, but it was commented that a significant sample of these line segments were divided in the area of 1:1.618... Their premise was that this gave balance/weight to the line for stability. Just an observation.

david_h · 17 Jan 2013, 19:36

I think all this discussion can be put to bed right here: at least it does it for me.

Donald in MathMagic Land

If you want to bypass how the Golden Ratio worked in Music, and go right to architecture and art scroll to about 7:08

All truth can be found in cartoons.