Anti-SketchUp! Snobbery [or Ignorance?]

pbacot

Jason,

In your opinion,then, what's the natural progression to another modeller for architectural work? (given ease of use and reasonable cost--not talking about Gehry buildings or skyscrapers...)

I don't encounter it, but it seems a lot of the "snobbery" people are noting is not from modellers or based on power. Few would argue the idea there's a lack there.

Peter

jason_maranto

Well that's the sticky wicket isn't it -- I don't really do Architectural stuff, or at least not traditional stuff (more sci-fi/fantasy)... so I could not say what an architectural person would say for sure.

However I'm of the mindset that good modeling is good modeling, and usually when I get past the "anti-SketchUp snobbery" I encounter elsewhere I often find underneath is a solid reason for disliking SketchUp. Namely the geometry that SketchUp creates is not terribly good in many cases (sometimes the fault of the program, but often the fault of the modeler using it)... and when those users are forced to deal with SketchUp made geometry in other apps it is frustrating (to say the least). The same complaints are often made about Revit, but since I don't know anything about that software I cannot confirm.

Now to be fair it IS called "SketchUp", and one would think the choice of name is purposely telling you that this is meant more for "Sketches", rather than high-end models (and results often bear that out).

I'm not into undermining this forum with talking too much about specific competing products, but I will say that after spending considerable time with the latest version of form.Z I found it to be much more powerful than SketchUp Pro, even with a slew of free and paid plugins... it is often used for architectural work, and the price is not far off from Pro.

My reservations about that software really came down to some odd UI things I wanted sorted out before I tried to teach it -- If I was using it only for personal work I would have purchased for sure, but I didn't want to spend the first 2 hours of my course explaining how to customize the UI... I prefer to cover those topics after the student has a understanding of how to use the tools, so they can customize with their own workflow in mind, rather than blindly follow my lead. So my intention was to include some UI presets to get through the bulk of the course quickly, but they were having issues with monitors of differing resolutions on some operating systems exploding the UI (think SketchUp toolbars problem but worse).

Personally, for the work I am more likely to do, I think I would prefer Modo, but that software has some issues of it's own -- I decided to hold off there due to a relatively underdeveloped/immature API for 3rd party plugins (namely my render engine). And I didn't choose MoI (my other top choice) for the same reason (non-existent API).

My other main 3D related softwares are geared more towards organics and high-end textures . As it stands I'm am taking the "wait and see" approach with how things pan out with Trimble -- if things don't move in a direction I like I will make a switch at that time... I can say for sure that I already really hate the decision to do an Autodesk-like annual release (SketchUp 2013... lame).

Best,
Jason.

pbacot

Right. Form-Z has been an architectural staple for a long time. That makes sense.

charly2008

Hi,

Arise to leave the wrong impression, I love Sketchup. I also see it not in competition with other 3D CAD programs.

I think Sketchup has its small place in the field of 3D visualization for architectural objects.

For this purpose, the program was designed for and nothing else. For use in the planning of major industrial and architectural projects, the program has simply not the necessary tools.

That we also can design and visualize other complex objects in Sketchup, is largely due to the Ruby programmers. We also know that SketchUp has its limitations, for example in terms of high-resolution objects. I am also not worried about what others think about Sketchup. If anyone can use the program in his professional environment, it has served its purpose. Only the result counts. And we Hobbyists are happy that we have a tool with which we can implement our ideas virtually.

I think in technical or architectural projects the 3D visualization represents only a fraction of the whole project work. I think that is one of the reasons that many professionals pay less attention to Sketchup.

I also think "Trimble" will see Sketchup only as a complement, for the visualization of objects in his own programs. I can not imagine that "SketchUp" is further developed into a super modeling tool. Rather Trimble will try, to integrate the program into its own existing programs as a visualization tool.

Sorry if my english is not so perfect.

Charly

raineysky

Charly,

Good post and your English is very good.

sonder

Well I couldn't disagree more. I find sketchup and layout far more powerful for architectural applications than acad. I learned cad starting on version 2.3. My last version I used was adt4 (version 2004). I am officially done with ACAD. it is a program that is cumbersome not only in its user interface, but in its internal programming. While I do mainly projects under 10,000 sf, I would have no hesitation taking on large scale projects.

Jackson

God that is pathetic.

What do they offer as an alternative?

SU

Pros
-Fast
-Cheap (Free)You can learn the basics in 4 hours
-Decent native real-time WYSIWYG shadow rendering
-Fantastic import & export options
-Open source options (ruby)
-Very easy material editor and UV mapping
-Makes working in 3D totally natural before easily exporting to boring old 2D for Cds
-Now has many options for excellent render plugins, Podium, Maxwell, VRay
-Developers (at least on the @last side of things) are very nice people
-Fast
-Fast
-Fast

Cons
-Doesn't handle curved geometry well
-Stupid childish name
-Ehm..... it's addictive? Hang on, I think that's a Pro.

Autocad

Pros
-Industry standard (thanks to monopolistic, abusive marketing)
-Reasonably fast for producing 2D CDs.
-Ehm... I'll come back to this.

Cons
-Did I say reasonably fast? I meant slow- I can model details in 3D in SU faster than I can draw them in 2D in Autocad.
-Extremely expensive and anachronistically so- most professional software has dropped dramatically in price in the last few years, but Acad has reluctantly crept very slowly down.
-Takes days to learn the basics.
-The software has barely changed in 7 years, yet every version makes previous versions obselete forcing the entire industry to upgrade.

Autodesk. (There's some swearing for you Jon). They only have contempt for their customers, laughing all the way to the bank every time they release a "new" version and take their customers' money all over again.
3D is an afterthought and God, does it show.

If anyone would like to do a pros and cons list for other software, eg 3DMax (you have to meditate for 7 years, become one with the universe and pray to the God of Horrible UIs and Insane Bugs before you're allowed to progress to Level 1). I'd love to see what these "We hate SU" gonks would use instead. They're obviously just bitter because they spent years learning software which has now become more or less obselete (see my post on the Pro User Forum re: an article in the Architect's Journal about huge architecture firms using SU extensively).

@lapx said:

These are stubborn architects that think they know with out even trying to use the software what the program is capable of. I have tried to convinced the office that su is more that just drawing pretty 3d models. Su as Bob says can be incorporated in every phase of the project including CD's. I got this question today- "Is it as acurate as autocad?Can you use to do cd's?"...I just wanted to SCREAM!!!The only reason why I'm complaining is because I know how much more productive our office could be if they would fully embrace and push the software to its limits.

I've been fortunate enough to introduce SU to 2 offices who after a little persuasion (this was before the free version came out) embraced it completely.
We do our building surveys, sketch designs, planning applications, export 2D sections for building warrant and construction documents all in SketchUp, safe in the knowledge that the SU model is 100% accurate (if I made it ) which means all the BW and CD drawings will be accurate and consistent. We even occasionally print off perpectives or axonometrics of complex details for contractors if they're struggling with visualising them. We have been able to take on about twice as much work with the same workforce as we are now so efficient. AND we have freed up time to spend on promotion, marketing, research and competitions. Win win.

kalli

Those of you who might have some issues with SKP need to take a look at the UTUBE videos Nick Sonder has put up recently. His work says it all. From a developer as well as contractors standpoint - he's "nailed" his field. If you can't "build" from his work, then go home and change professions.

In addition, almost every other poster here has had something valuable to say. Do the "traditional (architectural) industry / practitioners" feel threatened, etc? No doubt. Can you imagine what AutoDesk and others have spent?

Having said that: The team of consultants / engineers / developers and builders we work with ? They could give a whit about "what' is used to create the end product. Millions of dollars are in play on these projects - literally (we're very, very lucky to have the work we have and, we try to appreciate it with frank, "humbleness" and, give thanks every single day).

In our work team, all manor programs are used, interfaced, etc. AutoCad does some great things and, quite quickly in the hands of talented (note "talented") user. Same for SolidWorks and several other programs mentioned. Frankly, it's all about the job and clear communications to the "end user" - be it design engineer, structural engineer, MEP folks, the client or whomever. We've never had a client with a seven-or-eight figure project say "how did you come up with that image or make those drawings?" They're busy, they want visuals, and most want them NOW. We've found that SKP delivers.

Too, we've received a number of project files from the "biggest and the (supposedly) best in the business). What we've had come across the threshold is truly, in some instances, unbelievably bad.

Remember: It's not the tool, it's the operator. Never forget that. If you're client has a problem with how you dig the ditch, hand him the shovel. Better yet, (if you can afford it) pass on that client; we've almost always found that, that type of client is trouble down the road. As for "balky" consultants that have too many "opinions." I flat out tell them: "they can always find their payslip elsewhere."