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    Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED

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    • brodieB Offline
      brodie
      last edited by

      Good points Tom. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have lumped you in with Pete, but I did think that you were attempting to pick up the argument in his stead as he'd not yet responded. At any rate I certainly appreciate your concessions. It makes it so much easier and more satisfying to argue when both sides can concede that the other side has some valid points. Getting down to the true heart of the issue seems much quicker in that case, although it's a frighteningly rare situation (Christians hold much of the blame here I feel making large brush-stroke, slipshod, and unhelpful remarks as we've seen on this very thread - assuming it's not a troll in our midst).

      @unknownuser said:

      Satan, I believe, is real.

      As an atheist, I guess you don't mean that literally. But in what sense do you mean it?

      @unknownuser said:

      I said "War on Terror", and I didn't call it Christian - I said there was a a certain religious component to it.

      Fair enough. Are you simply referring to the Islamic terrorist aspect or are you referring to something on our side. Maybe you could spell it out a bit for me.

      @unknownuser said:

      That's not what I said either. I meant that the vilification of Jews Rome wallowed in for centuries may have found a willing recipient in the young Adolf H.

      Ah, that's certainly a defensible position. If you believe history as it's related in the Bible Rome certainly wasn't the first to vilify the Jews but I'd grant you that they probably played the most significant part of setting the stage for Hitler to take the idea from really bad to bat-crap crazy evil.

      @unknownuser said:

      The world's a whole lot bigger than the USA and Western Europe.

      Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 😉

      -Brodie

      steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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      • Alan FraserA Offline
        Alan Fraser
        last edited by

        Actually, the cargo cults do raise a serious point about the formation of belief systems. We find them amusing...but only because (as in the case of Prince Philip) we still have the man to compare with the myth. Who's to say that many of the myths in all the great religions didn't start in exactly the same way? Naive islanders or equally naive people millenia ago. None of us has the automatic right to feel intellectually superior.

        Whatever the truth, it only explains the theologies. It has nothing to do with the question of whether or not god exists. It's not inconsistent for Hawking to believe in a creator (not saying categorically he does), even if we do solve all the physicality questions regarding the universe.

        That's why I don't consider myself an atheist.

        3D Figures
        Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
        You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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        • BepB Offline
          Bep
          last edited by

          Our god is the best!!!!

          Before everyone takes it to serious.
          Great Dutch satire on this topic. 🤣

          Bep

          "History is written by the winners"

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          • C Offline
            cornel
            last edited by

            Who is conscious,
            chooses the true God,
            because only He gives us assurance of salvation,
            eternal life,
            and changes in our present lives.

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            • StinkieS Offline
              Stinkie
              last edited by

              @unknownuser said:

              Good points Tom. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have lumped you in with Pete, but I did think that you were attempting to pick up the argument in his stead as he'd not yet responded.

              Oh, I was. But only to a certain degree. I don't agree with Pete's conclusion. Though I think I share his fears.

              @unknownuser said:

              It makes it so much easier and more satisfying to argue when both sides can concede that the other side has some valid points.

              Yeah, it does.

              @unknownuser said:

              Satan, I believe, is real.

              @unknownuser said:

              As an atheist, I guess you don't mean that literally. But in what sense do you mean it?

              I meant that there's incredibily evil people out there. I was specifically thinking of Joseph Kony.

              @unknownuser said:

              @unknownuser said:

              I said "War on Terror", and I didn't call it Christian - I said there was a a certain religious component to it.

              Fair enough. Are you simply referring to the Islamic terrorist aspect or are you referring to something on our side.

              Both. In the case of the US, it was mainly the rhetorics. 'Crusade', 'evil', 'evildoer' - whilst not uncommon words, they have a certain, well, patina. Seems to me the Bush administration attempted to use the christian identity of the US to make their plans go down easier. I think.

              @unknownuser said:

              bat-crap crazy evil.

              😆

              This is just in:

              "Pope Benedict XVI denounced gay marriage in his annual “State of the World” address Monday, going so far as to say the same-sex nuptials threaten the future of humanity.

              In the speech, the pope, 84, unleashed what some consider being his strongest tirade against gay marriage, saying it is among conventions that “undermine the family” and “threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself,” Reuters reported."

              😒

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              • brodieB Offline
                brodie
                last edited by

                @unknownuser said:

                This is just in:

                "Pope Benedict XVI denounced gay marriage in his annual “State of the World” address Monday, going so far as to say the same-sex nuptials threaten the future of humanity.

                In the speech, the pope, 84, unleashed what some consider being his strongest tirade against gay marriage, saying it is among conventions that “undermine the family” and “threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself,” Reuters reported."

                😒

                That's precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. Of all the sins that might end humanity...you pick that? Not hatred, not greed, not pride, envy, oppression...nope, homosexuality, that'll do us all in. At least now we know we won't have to worry about thermal nuclear war clearing us all out, all we have to worry about now is...I guess everyone turning gay and no children being born? That wouldbe a far more disappointing end to humanity, just sort of fizzling out like that.

                -Brodie

                steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                • StinkieS Offline
                  Stinkie
                  last edited by

                  Erm, I'm not the one obsessing over homosexuality - it was the guy in the dress. 😄

                  Wait ... I misunderstood. Right?

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                  • brodieB Offline
                    brodie
                    last edited by

                    @unknownuser said:

                    Erm, I'm not the one obsessing over homosexuality - it was the guy in the dress. 😄

                    Wait ... I misunderstood. Right?

                    Ya, I was just ranting that this is the sort of thing (within the Christian church - in the broadest sense of the term) which irritates me in that it gives us all a bad name I think. On this point, you atheists are lucky. You have far fewer crazy folks screwing over your own side to contend with.

                    -Brodie

                    steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                    • StinkieS Offline
                      Stinkie
                      last edited by

                      Nah, there's plenty of those as well.

                      Edit: well, I know at least one. A sexuologist whom I once had dinner with. Very, very anti religion, in a rather unpleasant irrational way.

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                      • brodieB Offline
                        brodie
                        last edited by

                        @unknownuser said:

                        Nah, there's plenty of those as well.

                        Oh, you've got your share but I think going by shear numbers I think we both know who'd win in a crazy contest.

                        steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                        • michaliszissiouM Offline
                          michaliszissiou
                          last edited by

                          You keep talking on this pointless conversation.
                          Avoiding answer my comments or some other's ones.
                          Still egoists all of you, still believing in your personal god.
                          Nothing weird here. Just predictable.
                          But when we're talking about God, I really don't care about how your personal god looks like. It's you and You only.
                          Especially Pete, who seems that he's the only true believer here. lol
                          But remember, we're trying to communicate. We're just human beings, alone, under a vast world.
                          My experience shows me that some architects and constructors are the most egoists I've met.
                          The equivalent of the great architect of the universe or something similar.
                          Good luck to all of us.

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                          • brodieB Offline
                            brodie
                            last edited by

                            @michaliszissiou said:

                            You keep talking on this pointless conversation.
                            Avoiding answer my comments or some other's ones.
                            Still egoists all of you, still believing in your personal god.
                            Nothing weird here. Just predictable.
                            But when we're talking about God, I really don't care about how your personal god looks like. It's you and You only.
                            Especially Pete, who seems that he's the only true believer here. lol
                            But remember, we're trying to communicate. We're just human beings, alone, under a vast world.
                            My experience shows me that some architects and constructors are the most egoists I've met.
                            The equivalent of the great architect of the universe or something similar.
                            Good luck to all of us.

                            I'm not quite sure who you're talking to or what you're saying. 😐

                            -Brodie

                            steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                            • brodieB Offline
                              brodie
                              last edited by

                              @solo said:

                              @unknownuser said:

                              Especially Pete, who seems that he's the only true believer here.

                              ..erm, you mean non-believer right?

                              Actually I may be the most stubborn and the least willing to listen.

                              In my defense I can also say that I was once a born again Christian openly 'making fishers of men' for many years with a very radical non-denominational bunch called the 'Church of Christ', I also studied the bible for seven years while with them, so I honestly can say I came to my own conclusions and do not make my stances on ignorance.

                              Was that in Texas as well Pete? As in the ICOC?

                              -Brodie

                              steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                              • brodieB Offline
                                brodie
                                last edited by

                                @solo said:

                                No, Johannesburg, but yes ICOC JHB.

                                Ah, I'm a member of the ICOC actually. It certainly did screw up a lot of folks back then (not so long ago). The church where I was converted was actually in a pretty good place but I've heard lots of bad stories and experienced some degree of that. Would you say the...rigidity, shall we say, contributed to your becoming an atheist or was it something else?

                                -Brodie

                                steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                                • C Offline
                                  cornel
                                  last edited by

                                  @solo said:

                                  In my defense I can also say that I was once a born again Christian openly 'making fishers of men' for many years with a very radical non-denominational bunch called the 'Church of Christ', I also studied the bible for seven years while with them, so I honestly can say I came to my own conclusions and do not make my stances on ignorance.

                                  ‘Solo’, something is wrong!
                                  Who was TRULY “born again”, that person can not lose the faith/trust in God, can not lose salvation of God...! It is impossible something like that...!

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                                  • S Offline
                                    Starling75
                                    last edited by

                                    [flash=600,400:mq3j9pe1]http://www.youtube.com/v/nT2qRdffNik?version=3&hl=cs_CZ&[/flash:mq3j9pe1]

                                    http://www.adherents.com/people/pb/Ingmar_Bergman.html

                                    http://users.hal-pc.org/~questers/bergman.html

                                    http://www.starlingarch.cz

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                                    • S Offline
                                      Starling75
                                      last edited by

                                      @unknownuser said:

                                      ‘Solo’, something is wrong!
                                      Who was TRULY “born again”, that person can not lose the faith/trust in God, can not lose salvation of God...! It is impossible something like that...!

                                      Oh... Cornel....

                                      http://www.starlingarch.cz

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                                      • brodieB Offline
                                        brodie
                                        last edited by

                                        @solo said:

                                        Hmmm, there were many factors, one was the studying of the bible, just seemed that they were interpreting it to suit their flavor, I had many questions that I felt was intercepted with lame and unfulfilled answers. Then there was the tithe, taken very seriously to a point that it felt more like a tax and them like spiritual mafia.
                                        The whole 'making fishers of men' thing also got too much after a while as we were required to do some real tough stuff like administering to total strangers in malls, outside nightclubs on Saturday nights, invite total strangers to study the bible with a push/goal to get them baptized and into the 'flock' (more like tithe paying members)
                                        It all seemed like one huge scam.

                                        I was raised a baptist, grandfather was a reverend and my dad in South Africa is now a preacher in his church, so coming to my convictions was difficult and did cause many heartaches within my family. I am much happier now and totally convinced I am correct, almost like being blind and suddenly seeing (stealing a quote from the bible), the fog of Christianity can be blinding but once you see the truth you feel silly for actually believing all that crap.

                                        Very interesting. I find it fascinating that we've had a number of similar experiences and, in fact, seem to have a lot of the same opinions on what's wrong in the church, and yet we've reached such different conclusions. I've seen that same issue of people having questions which have gone unanswered - particularly before they're Christians. I haven't personally experienced the pressure to tithe although I've heard that was an issue in the past in many ICOC churches. I believe evangelism is important but I agree that the focus and method is flawed and haven't participated in the sorts of things you're referring to.

                                        So we have many of the same frustrations. And I did go through a period not long ago where I struggled with a lot of questions. But these weren't so much questions about God, but rather about the church. Why do you suppose we faced similar situations and came to question different things because of them?

                                        I do wonder what you're referring to regarding interpreting the Bible to suit their flavor. Can you explain that a bit more?

                                        How is your family with your decision at this point?

                                        -Brodie

                                        steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                                        • C Offline
                                          cornel
                                          last edited by

                                          Those who are saved (“born again”), are given by the Father in the care of His Son, the Lord, and He said:
                                          “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:37-39)

                                          The Lord Jesus Christ does not lose any, because He DOES the will of the Father!

                                          ‘Solo’, it means that you actually have no a clear definition of expresion “BORN AGAIN”..., in a biblical way!

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                                          • R Offline
                                            Roger
                                            last edited by

                                            When architects have time to waste on arguing the merits (pro and con) of religion you can tell the economy has not yet turned the corner.

                                            http://www.azcreative.com

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