"I'm ready to lose control, but they're not"
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Recently I have decided to explore more what Native American say about they spirituality. I am genuinely interested in learning more about their respect for 'Mother Earth', spiritual abilities and so on. In my search I have found a description of a 'Great Vision' experienced by the Red Elk. I have included the link to his story in my first post.
Now you are talking my language.....
Tomasz--they're many great books about Native (North) American spirituality and livelihood. "Touch the Earth" is a good start. "Book of the Hopi".. While I am wary of idolizing any culture (like most societies some Native tribes obviously oppressed women) there some beautiful insights. I feel sorry for you if you are spending your time with the sort of things you post, like the videos here.
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I certainly didn't expect to find a conversation about 9/11 and conspiracy here; I come here to become a better SU user and find the absolutely fantastic plugins that the community has come up with (thanks again to all those creators!). I think I have to throw my $.02 in.
I work for one of the airlines involved in 9/11, my wife works for the other; both of us are crew. I didn't know any of the crew involved, but my wife did. I looked down on NYC from 27,000 feet and saw the smoke coming off of Manhattan before the towers fell, and we were told in no uncertain terms that that we had best proceed directly to our destination, immediately, and absolutely do not deviate from that course. It was the quietest flight, and the most silent, empty airfield I have ever seen - or hope to see again. I got inside just in time to watch the towers fall on the news.
I personally find the comments that this was some kind of conspiracy to deliberately kill thousands of people, cause hundreds more to have chronic illnesses (the cleanup effort) and destroy the economy for years, by their own government's hand or wilful inaction, absolutely absurd and offensive. The conspiracy theorists thrive in a vacuum of information, or excel at creating arguments that are as impossible to disprove as UFOs or chemtrails. My personal opinion is that you may use another "C" word instead of Conspiracy - Complacency. Scores of threats coming in constantly - Which one to act on? Can't disrupt the American's fat, dumb and happy life with worry about terrorists now can we? Dad helped son get a great job in the White House; party on, dude! After all, the best they did before was a car bomb...
Want to know why I think we were complacent (other than living it myself)? Look at the footage of George Bush when he was told what was happening. Where he was in a grade school reading class. The look of shock when he came back and sat down on the chair, with the book upside down in his hands if I recall correctly, says it all. He didn't have a clue. Never saw it coming. That's pretty much all of us. That cushy job dad helped him get just got mighty uncomfortable. I have seen the footage and many photos of the wreckage surrounding the Pentagon and the Trade Center, and there absolutely pieces of aircraft there. Engines and landing gear components are plainly visible, these components are the most resistant to high temperatures and the most solid, respectively; and therefore are most likely to survive an impact/fire. If a demolition, do you not think that someone would have noticed people carrying hundreds of feet of det cord, scores of explosive charges, remote detonators or any of the number of components needed to effectively destroy the buildings and have them begin to collapse EXACTLY where the aircraft struck? You've been watching too many bad American action movies.
Please give Americans more credit than that - even if all you remember of us lately is the last 8 years of the worst administrations I can ever remember (IMO).
My apologies if this seemed pedantic or browbeating, that was not my intent, and for it being so long. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I'm not a "rah, rah, USA! USA!" type, so don't pin that on me either; half my family is off-the-boat Berliners, and my other half spent half her life in Germany as well - so I also know that there are countries outside of the US!
(Oh, I'm not a CIA, G8, or WMF plant either. Unless you think I am 
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Alex jones, Architects for 911 truth,Dylan Avery who made Loose Change, William Rodriguez the WTC employee who led the fire crews in and out of WTC have all made very serious allegations that if unsubstantiated would probably get them sued for slander and deformation, possibly even imprisoned. So why haven't they been dragged through the courts? Could it be because there claims would stand up to more scrutiny than the explanations provided by the 911 comission report?
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Good one.
So what you're saying is that the US government is capable of planning, executing and covering up a crime the size of the 9/11 attacks, but nevertheless fears the scrutiny of courts and lawyers?
@escapeartist said:
The conspiracy theorists thrive in a vacuum of information, or excel at creating arguments that are as impossible to disprove as UFOs or chemtrails.
That sums it up quite nicely. As for arguments that cannot be disproved ... Ah, I must admit I find it rather surprising that people who pride themselves in being critical would have such disdain for the falsifiability principle. Surely they have only the foggiest of ideas what true critical praxis is. Nevertheless there's this arrogance about them ... 'you are blind, we are not'. It's that combination of factors I find, well, rather disgusting.
Edit: A thought. Why is it that the average conspiracy theorist, if cornered, suddenly doesn't seem to understand the difference between a hypothesis and an opinion?
-"Barack Obama's an alien!"
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"Prove it."
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"Well that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to my opinions, aren't I?"
I believe this is more than mere childish tactics. This is an appropriate quote from Robert Hughes:
"Untrained in logical analysis, ill-equipped to develop and construct formal arguments about issues, unused to mining texts for deposits of factual material, the students fell back to what they could truly call their own: what they felt about things. When feelings and attitudes are the main referents of argument, to attack any position is automatically to insult its holder, even to assail his or her perceived 'rights'."
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Stinki, your only reason for being here is to have a laugh and express your being disgusted. Those are your conclusions. You don't even intend to dwell longer on the many, too many in my opinion, discrepancies between an official explanations and what you have seen with your own eyes.
Personally I wouldn't be bothered by those terrible events if the top stories of two towers would gradually collapse and fall down as a single pieces. I wouldn't have doubts. Listen to a fireman in one of the films who is saying about secondary blasts while they were running down the stairs. Find videos of building no.7 and compare them with other controlled demolitions. Have you ever heard about a fire in a tall building that has caused WHOLE building to collapse? Two towers took the hit and went back to their position. I could continue here for a long time... but I don't see point. I don't know how someone has managed to put thermite that melts the steel in a blink of an eye.
There is always a question of credibility of the sources. Is Bush administration more credible that a professor who decided to investigate closer those discrepancies, despite the obvious resistance he had to face and has been sent for a 'holidays' and no longer can work as a professor of physics? It is your decision who you want to believe.
I am not bothered with 'fake landing on the moon', 'ufo', 'flying people', 'pyramids of Giza built by aliens' and whatever conspiracy theories out there. Even the Group that it is a topic of this thread, doesn't bother me much, unless it have something to do with global cataclysm.
Thanks pbacot for the titles of books.
Coen, It was me who started a thread about 2012 film. -
@unknownuser said:
Stinki, your only reason for being here is to have a laugh and express your being disgusted.
That's true. And I pointed out WHY I am disgusted. All you have to do to stop me from being disgusted, is provide the proof you said you'd come up with. And which you should've produced in the first place. Burden of proof, remember?
@unknownuser said:
Stinki, your only reason for being here is to have a laugh and express your being disgusted. Those are your conclusions. You don't even intend to dwell longer on the many, too many in my opinion, discrepancies between an official explanations and what you have seen with your own eyes.
With my own eyes, eh? So I was there then? Or do you mean I have access to REALLY sensitive information?
If one wants to produce a thought worthy of that name, one should refrain from acutely stretching the meaning of words, concepts and definitions. If one does not adhere to this little rule of thumb, one produces something commonly known as 'bullshit'.
Less whining, more proof.
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stinkie, have you ever thought about the possibility that the PROOF you are looking for, may come when it is too late to do anything about it ?
There is an obvious conexion between 9/11 and our present events in the world. And the world is stinking.
maybe,instead of waiting,it is worthy to have a look about what other people are thinking about it. That, suppossed you have any wonder about it. It is clear that if you dont have any question about that event, all words are meaningless.
cheers. -
Juan, sorry, again I haven't a clue what you're on about.
I have a feeling, however, you've made up your mind already, like Tomasz has. Magical ability, that - to be able to draw conclusions without hard evidence.
You boys remind me of a farmer who's put his carriage in front of his horse - and nevertheless thinks he's travelling at an impressive speed.
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@unknownuser said:
You boys remind me of a farmer who's put his carriage in front of his horse - and nevertheless thinks he's travelling at an impressive speed.
That is very nice fromm you stinkie,
thanks
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I think this is one of those debates in which both sides already made their minds, so any further discussion is useless.
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@marian said:
I think this is one of those debates in which both sides already made their minds, so any further discussion is useless.
not if stinkie puts an V after my Juan
)))))
we may go on and lead to clarity
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Sorry to do a quantum leap back to the first page of this topic, but that "500,000 plastic coffins" conspiracy theory (like most) is ludicrous. Firstly, they're not coffins, they're grave liners, designed to prevent the ground surface above a grave from collapsing in when the coffin rots away. Wow, the dark forces really want to keep neat graveyards, huh?.
Secondly, 500,000 grave liners sounds like a lot... unless you consider that 150,000 people die per year in the USA of lung cancer alone. So I'm guessing that 500,000 stockpiled grave liners wouldn't even be enough to maintain supply for every death by natural causes in 1 year in the United States.
Thirdly, lets just say the US government has ordered them in preparation for some mysterious fatal event- isn't that what they're supposed to do? Yet another example of "damned if you do, damned if you don't"- If the government don't have the facilities or means to deal with the aftermath of events like Hurricane Katrina, they would be lambasted as reckless and unprepared..... but if they carry out risk analyses, emergency service and military drills, stockpile medical supplies and grave liners the conspiracy theory forums abound with "Ooooohhh, they knew it was going to happen.... no wait.... they MADE it happen!" Where's a yawn smiley when you need one? The puke smiley just seems inappropriate this time.
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@marian said:
I think this is one of those debates in which both sides already made their minds, so any further discussion is useless.
Nice try. Would've worked if were primarely criticizing Tomasz's views. But I'm not, as I'm sure a careful reader would notice.
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@unknownuser said:
@marian said:
I think this is one of those debates in which both sides already made their minds, so any further discussion is useless.
Nice try. Would've worked if were primarely criticizing Tomasz's views. But I'm not, as I'm sure a careful reader would notice.
Darn it.
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@jackson said:
Sorry to do a quantum leap back to the first page of this topic, but that "500,000 plastic coffins" conspiracy theory (like most) is ludicrous.
My point is that group makes sense for me only in case of a big global disaster and they simply want to escape it. Those containers, as you have stated, are supposed to be there in such a case.
I have not implied that they MAKE it happen! I just suggest that they do what they should if what the Red Elk have seen in his vision would happen. -
whiny voice
Is that proof still coming, Tommie?
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In the case of a global catastophe, the last thing on any survivor's mind would be burying the dead...especially using nice, tidy plastic coffins or liners. They'd be far more concerned with not joining the ranks of the dead themselves.
Ask anyone who has ever been in a situation of having to handle huge numbers of corpses...you don't use coffins; you use excavators. -
@alan fraser said:
In the case of a global catastophe, the last thing on any survivor's mind would be burying the dead...
It is exactly what Red Elk mentions. Those who survived would rather change places with those who has left this World. In case of deaths from hunger or thirst in high temperatures it is better to seal bodies well. Isn't it?
@unknownuser said:
Is that proof still coming, Tommie?
Nope, Stinkin'. You have received already all info required on which I have based my opinion. Two mentioned films are the most important.
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Is that proof still coming, Tommie?
Nope, Stinkin'. You have received already all info required on which I have based my opinion. Two mentioned films are the most important.
Films. Those bold statements of yours are based on ... films.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Edit: I just have to know. What stopped you from concluding the WTC was destroyed by Godzilla? Mind you, this is very much a serious question.
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I'm not supporting Tomasz, but you guys keep asking for evidence, and there may be none or very few, you don't ask a cop for evidence why he had a hunch following a succesful bust, or ask evidence for god, or ask for evidence why you love that girl, you may not know why, or you can't explain it in words, sometimes it's just a hunch or a leap of faith.
Granted that these examples don't compare to the questions why 911 is an inside job, but they show that people believe in stuff or feel stuff with much less evidence and questions than the ones 911 puts forth.
I say if Tomasz can't provide proof or valid arguments, but he still believes in what he believes then it's his choice, he's not obligated to provide any.
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