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Only above average IQ people should vote????

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  • M Offline
    Mike Lucey
    last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 04:51

    Hi Guys,

    I came across this Site http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread113200/pg1
    while searching for thoughts on the suggestion that only persons of above
    average IQ should be allowed to vote for government.

    I suppose this leads to the question, should political candidates also be above
    average IQ before being allowed to stand for election?

    Here is a picture (how true it is I have no idea, but again 😲 ) of the IQ
    situation by State with regard to the last US Presidential Elections, interesting
    figures! Could we have had a case of '.... the lunatics running the asylum?',
    many would say YES!

    I think it might be fair to say that people of below average IQ expect to be taken
    care of in our societies by the people of higher IQs. So, should they not leave
    government to the people of higher IQs?

    In order to look at the other side of the coin I searched for information on the
    Nazi leaders IQs http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/grady/nazi.html and was surprise
    at what I found, then again maybe not as they where Germanic, but its again interesting
    reading.

    I also thought this reply was well argued,

    [color=#000080:3e5mqhbm]Utter lunacy. Society is more than hierarchal enough as it is. It is riddled with ample inequality already without implementing this idiotic idea that democracy should only be open for people deemed to be of 'above average' intelligence.

    Lets hypothetically suggest that this nightmarish scenario is implemented, and 30% of the population of our hypothetical nation are stripped of their voting rights - and effetively therefore stripped of their citizenship and place in a democratic society. What then? What does that make them? Automatons? Slaves? what?

    Do you expect these people to contribute to society any further? work? pay taxes? happily carry on with their lives? after you've expelled them from society based on their IQ??!

    What do you do with these dissenters then? Put them in prison? worse?

    %(#000080)[Its ironic that people can be conceited enough to advocate a system where democracy exists only for a chosen 'intelligent' proportion, without being able to consider the concequences of sych a system, or the basic rights of a fellow human. Dont be so partronising towards these people either; someone of below average intelligenge is quite able to put a cross next to the political party that best represents their views and beliefs, and furthermore have just as much right as anyone to have those views, and to have them represented in a democracy.

    If people are prepared to judge someone and devalue their worth - let alone question their place in society - based on an attribute that is determined pre-birth and in early childhood, then its a sad state of affairs indeed I'm affraid. I cant say much more without mentioning Prince Harry's party wear...][/color]

    Maybe some New system is needed?

    Mike

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    • J Offline
      johnsenior1973
      last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 05:23

      @mike lucey said:

      I think it might be fair to say that people of below average IQ expect to be taken care of in our societies by the people of higher IQs. So, should they not leave government to the people of higher IQs?

      Judging by that statement you'd be in danger of losing your right to vote. How would you feel if you were stripped of the right?

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      • A Offline
        Alan Fraser
        last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 06:55

        A superficially appealing notion, but unworkable and highly dangerous. If I had to choose between morons voting for a hockey mom and a system that produced Untermensch at one end and monsters like Heydrich at the other, I'd put up with the hockey mom....while I improved the education system.

        3D Figures
        Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
        You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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        • K Offline
          kwistenbiebel
          last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 08:36

          Having a higher IQ doesn't make you more 'wise'.
          I can imagine Hitlers IQ was above average.

          Only above average IQ people should vote? Hell no!

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          • S Offline
            Stu
            last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 10:43

            I think I can see a bulge in Mikes cheek on this one...but to be honest I would much rather have some 'smart' bod governing me rather than a 'democratically elected' B grade actor with Old Timer's Disease or some imbicile son of a former pres.
            Lets face it ...'democracy' is a blip on mankind's political landscape.....it was a nice idea in ancient Athens...[forgetting for the moment, women and slaves]......but it really is a localised and recent phenomena where the same universal tools of gaining power over the masses are used [eg. threats, bribery, manipulation, deciet, murder etc etc].....the main redeeming factor of democracy [and this is only true in an amazingly small number of countries] is that you can vote out some moron before he does do too much damage and replace him with a some other idiot who will hopefully be voted out in 3 or 4 years before the intoxication of power becomes too much for him as well.
            This is sadly little different from the universal battle between families, clans, tribes, cities, states.... where the promise is that things will be better..... if we first demolish the opposition..[some times there is less blood spilt in the democratic process]
            But I dont think IQ is the thing...its 'intelligence'.....and the idea of the 'enlightened despot' is appealing....but then Alexander came to a sticky end....ahhh well, the wheel keeps turning

            http://www.landesign.com.au

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            • G Offline
              geh4evr
              last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 13:12

              ATS?! Hahaha 🀣

              Seriously, from my experience of surfing the web, that site has come up with more strange things than I dare to talk about.

              I'd take anything said there with more than just a pinch of salt, I'd use the whole container.

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              • D Offline
                Daniel
                last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 13:17

                This argument is elitist and has no place in a democracy. And, who would decide what is a sufficient level of intelligence should be? How would it be measured? I also think the argument that people of lesser IQ expect to be taken care of by those with a higher IQ. There are many "simple" ordinary folk who do not expect a handout. And, as Kwist pointed out, IQ does not equal wisdom. I've come across quite a few people who were "too smart for their own good" (as my father would say) - people who reached the height of their academics, but have no common sense.

                My avatar is an anachronism.

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                • A Offline
                  Anssi
                  last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 18:57

                  The idea of an objective definition of an IQ has time and time again been proved to be scientific nonsense. Tests show test results to be very much culture- and education-dependent. I haven't looked at this particular case, but I think talking about IQ-s is mostly a kind of self-flattery. Your usefulness as a social being is more about what you do, not how you have placed tick marks on some stupid paper.

                  And taking an IQ test can also be practised. After taking one that looked much like one at architecture entrance exams, another one taken at the army some months later was very easy to pass.

                  Anssi

                  securi adversus homines, securi adversus deos rem difficillimam adsecuti sunt, ut illis ne voto quidem opus esset

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                  • C Offline
                    chango70
                    last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 20:41

                    Remember democracy has many forms. Even the greatest champions of mass democracy and women's rights like John Stuart Mills had private reservations about decision making prowess of the so-called masses. I believe having to pander to popular whims of the voting pupblic can be a hinderance to progress in certain situations.

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                    • S Offline
                      solo
                      last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 20:48

                      If that were imposed we would never have a conservative government πŸ˜‰

                      However that would also mean we would no longer be a democracy, mind you we don't actually have one today as the 'electoral college' vote diminishes the equal vote anyway.... hmmm.

                      http://www.solos-art.com

                      If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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                      • M Offline
                        Mike Lucey
                        last edited by 29 Sept 2008, 22:25

                        The more I think about it the more I feel the current
                        way Government is elected and does business is very
                        outdated.

                        We (society) found it necessary in the distance past to
                        elect representatives that would carry out our wishes
                        in some distant part of the Country which had become
                        the Capital City! I am talking about times before we
                        had TV, telephones, computers, text, emails, video
                        conferencing etc. At the time this was the only way
                        we could get things agreed and done.

                        I really don't believe this has to be the situation today!
                        Why could we not have 'Politicians' that, number one,
                        have undergone SOME sort of formal training in this career
                        path, that would ONLY be allowed to deliver OUR wishes
                        on an ongoing basis / daily, considering current local
                        and regional circumstances and situations.

                        In other words, he / she would be OUR employee and if
                        they are not toeing the line and carrying out our wishes
                        we kick them out of the job.

                        Of course there would be a need for Long Term Planning
                        BUT again this should also be flexible. I think this model
                        COULD be developed with our current communication systems.

                        In my opinion the ONLY reason we have the current Political
                        Structure is because of SCALE and the ONLY reason we still
                        have this situation is because Politicians like it as it is!

                        Populations went into the Millions and the current system
                        made sense then as it often took days before a new law or
                        piece of legislation news filtered down to the guys living
                        in the sticks. This is NOT the case these days even in 3rd
                        World Countries.

                        I say we should think about getting back to true around the
                        camp fire democracy!

                        Mike

                        PS: I was NOT arguing FOR 'Only above average IQ people should
                        vote????' I was only tossing the notion up in theair for debate.
                        And from what I can gather Hitler's IQwas thought to be an
                        average of his lieutenants, which seems to have been well above
                        average, 132!

                        PPS: Stu, you read me πŸ˜‰

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                        • P Offline
                          Paris
                          last edited by 30 Sept 2008, 02:36

                          Only people with above average intelligence should be allowed to run for office...

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                          • T Offline
                            tomsdesk
                            last edited by 30 Sept 2008, 03:24

                            @paris said:

                            Only people with above average intelligence should be allowed to run for office...

                            Yeah...that'd be a big step up, huh?

                            http://www.tomsdesk.moonfruit.com/
                            2.5D Trees & Shrubs!

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                            • R Offline
                              remus
                              last edited by 30 Sept 2008, 06:05

                              Personally mike i think people are far too fickle to run a system such as you described, thered be out of work politicians all over the place at the first sign of trouble.

                              http://remusrendering.wordpress.com/

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                              • D Offline
                                Daniel
                                last edited by 30 Sept 2008, 13:27

                                Mike, in your example the politicians would only be allowed to do "our" bidding....but who constitutes the "our" in your argument. How would you get everyone in a representative's district to agree on what their bidding is? Politicians would be waiting all the time while their constituents are debating on what they should do. We elect and send our representatives and senators to Washington to govern, and that means making tough choices that we don't always like; it is their duty to govern and NOT worry about pandering to their constituents and doing something that might jeopardize their re-election. maybe if we had term limits in congress they would stop worrying about elections and get down to the business of governing.

                                My avatar is an anachronism.

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                                • M Offline
                                  Mike Lucey
                                  last edited by 30 Sept 2008, 14:07

                                  I don't think the public in general, taken as a whole,
                                  are the slightest bit fickle. Something that springs
                                  to mind!

                                  I don't know how many of you have ever watched 'Who
                                  Wants to Be A Millionaire?' In this TV program the
                                  contestant has three life-lines, Ask the Audience,
                                  50/50 and Ask a Friend. From what I can gather the
                                  'Ask the Audience' is the BEST option as the group
                                  wisdom is correct over 90% of the time.

                                  Politicians and Political Parties fast become concerned
                                  about their OWN survival NOT the wishes of the people
                                  they represent. I will admit that many of them start
                                  out with good intentions but they easily become sheep
                                  and blindly follow the leader comes into play.

                                  What I am suggesting is a more hands-on system that we
                                  all can be involved in on a daily / weekly basis as we
                                  now have the technology to do this.

                                  As case in point! We are all aware of the current World
                                  Financial Meltdown. I saw this coming for that past couple
                                  of years as did many other ordinary people. There have
                                  been a number of excellent BBC TV programs showing what
                                  was happening in the Banking World and what would happen
                                  if the breaks were not applied. Much of the discerning Public
                                  have also been aware of this BUT sadly our elected Politicians
                                  turned a blind eye or even worse did not understand what
                                  was happening!

                                  Some daily / weekly opinion seeking might be no harm at all
                                  and only help to focus or representative's minds on what they
                                  have been elected for in the first place, to carry out OUR
                                  wishes all be it under an agreed Policy. However is NO POINT
                                  in blindly running with a policy that is NOT working and
                                  needs to be re-planned. The World is changing far to quickly
                                  for the this OLD OUTDATED SYSTEM of Government.

                                  If I were an elected Politician I would set up an 'Ask the
                                  Audience' system whereby I would always be in touch with the
                                  grass root opinion, which is generally quite sensible and
                                  if taken from a BROAD BASE, is accurate most of the time, 90%
                                  would do me fine πŸ‘

                                  This system contrasts with current pack of Advisors and Lobbyists
                                  that usually have self interest at heart most of the time.

                                  Mike

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                                  • P Offline
                                    pbacot
                                    last edited by 30 Sept 2008, 15:24

                                    I think this is the sort of things the original US leaders had in mind. After all just to vote you had to be a landed white male. They thought you needed something that they (the landed white males) regarded as a sign of substance in order to lead all the others, including women. The result of the system they put in place was to eventually give the vote and other rights to more, not fewer.

                                    That said, I'd like to see the government of this country (USA) run according to the constitution for once. It's the political system, not the law that is hurting us. I'd say not enough people are allowed to vote. Not enough people have access to office. I say the vote isn't fair enough yet. As was shown in 2000, the vote can be taken from all the people.

                                    And there are plenty of very intelligent people who will never have access to office in our two party system as it stands.

                                    Why worry about IQ which is another system of control like the tests once given to blacks to keep them from voting? What about education? If we could educate ourselves decently, we'd be much further ahead. I guess this is an easier solution, because we've given up on education.

                                    People don't use their heads to vote anyway. What are you talking about?

                                    If you are going to use draconian measures, how about REQUIRING THAT EVERYONE VOTES (they may vote for "none of the above") and that they do SOME sort of civil service at SOME point in their lives? As it is, only a fraction of citizens take part in the government. The only thing we are required to do in regards to government is fork over our money.

                                    MacOSX MojaveSketchUp Pro v19 Twilight v2 Thea v3 PowerCADD

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                                    • R Offline
                                      RickW
                                      last edited by 1 Oct 2008, 07:31

                                      @solo said:

                                      If that were imposed we would never have a conservative government πŸ˜‰

                                      I was under the opposite impression, considering that - according to Pew - university attendees/graduates are more likely to be conservatives, while those with a high school education (or less) are considerably more likely to be liberals (and while I acknowledge that education does not necessarily equate to IQ, I don't think the bottom 30% of IQ scorers typically attend university). πŸ˜„

                                      @solo said:

                                      However that would also mean we would no longer be a democracy, mind you we don't actually have one today as the 'electoral college' vote diminishes the equal vote anyway.... hmmm.

                                      That is as it should be. The Founding Fathers did not intend for the US to be a democracy, but a representative republic. Democracy (as understood by the Founders) is basically mob rule, and the mob is swayed by emotion (just look at the latest "crisis du jour", whatever it may be, and observe the public's at-large reaction to it). A representative republic (generally) adds a necessary layer of insulation between the emotion and the policymaking.

                                      The electoral college is a paramount example of balancing the interests of large and small (population) states, being the commingling of the proportional representation of the House of Representatives and the equal representation of the Senate. In this way, the regional differences in opinion and self-interest inherent in such a large nation are somewhat equalized - a candidate can't simply appeal to the voters of just a few very populous states and win election.

                                      RickW
                                      [www.smustard.com](http://www.smustard.com)

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                                      • C Offline
                                        chango70
                                        last edited by 1 Oct 2008, 09:27

                                        The party political system of Democracy evolved out of the British Parliament, where Reformist (Whigs and Chartists) formed interest groups and parties against the declining power of the Monarchy and the French Revolution where people of similar political inclinations sat next to each other in the general assembly (Reformers on the left side and Loyalists on the right). It was created/evolved in a time when society was highly stratified and the simple division between reformers and conservatives easily encompassed all political orientations. Take the British Labour party, it used to (before New Labour) have its core constituents based on, suprise, the labourers and Working class. Since the passing of manufacturing industry in Britain and rest of Western industrialised nations into service and information based economy where labour mobility is on the increase, old divisions are becoming increasingly meaningless as do their political party representational systems. Consequently European countries have witness decreasing number of electoral participation in the last 3 decade. I believe a new, more flexible way of political representation is urgently needed for mass Democracy to have any relavance for post-industrial societies.

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                                        • R Offline
                                          RickW
                                          last edited by 1 Oct 2008, 21:00

                                          Personally, I think there are plenty of good reasons for why the Founding Fathers shunned direct democracy in the US - and why we should continue to shun it: hysteria voting, ill-informed voting, directed/coerced voting, and more...

                                          RickW
                                          [www.smustard.com](http://www.smustard.com)

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