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    Large Hadron Collider

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    • W Offline
      watkins
      last edited by

      In respect of investment and return, one should not forget that the World Wide Web started at CERN.

      Link Preview Image
      Tim Berners-Lee - Wikipedia

      favicon

      (en.wikipedia.org)

      Collecting good minds together around a big project always yields long term results. This Forum is a good example.

      The billions spent have gone into salaries, commerce, development, education and training, and not least of all the design and implementation of better and more efficient superconducting magnets. The spin-off of such developments could be huge for the power generation and distribution industries who cannot or won't invest in the necessary R&D.

      Someone mentioned dog food? I think the UK alone spends over 1 billion a year on their pets. Personally, I would prefer to see that money going towards conserving endangered species, but that's not going to happen, is it. Three billion (?) on a new collider sounds good to me.

      Regards,
      Bob

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      • Alan FraserA Offline
        Alan Fraser
        last edited by

        Well, it's been running for 30 minutes and I'm still here. ๐Ÿ˜„

        Actually, the benefits from this could be tremendous...we just have no idea what they might be at this point. The whole particle physics thing is at the very core of much high-end technology from the radio valve onwards. Without this seemingly esoteric research we simply wouldn't have stuff like transistors, microchips, scanners etc.
        I'll bet that the investment isn't that much different proportionally from what was being sunk into Oak Ridge and Los Alamos in WWII. If people had known about that, they'd probably have thought the money would be better spent on bombers or aircraft carriers.

        3D Figures
        Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
        You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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        • T Offline
          toxicvoxel
          last edited by

          Circumstantial evidence gentlemen. Demonstrate to me that you have a technical understanding of what is going on today.
          Or are you supporting an idea that you do not understand?

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          • R Offline
            remus
            last edited by

            I fully admit that i dont have a technical understanding of the inner workings of the project, and i think youd be hard pushed to find more than a few thousand people who could give you the ins and outs of the LHC.

            Enough people who actually understand the subject seem to think its a damm good idea, thats enough to convince me.

            p.s. i could give you a rough overview of how it works, if thats enough to satisfy you.

            http://remusrendering.wordpress.com/

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            • M Offline
              Mr S
              last edited by

              Hi,

              Alan, thanks for that link to the video.
              That has to be the one and only time I have enjoyed listening to rap "music".

              I liked this comment that appeared there as well:

              @unknownuser said:

              I love hearing from Creationists who do not believe in the Big Bang warning us ,about creating ANOTHER Big Bang

              I also prefer my money being spent on this type of scientific research which hopefully helps extend mankinds knowledge of who and what we are.
              A far better investment better than all the billions given in foreign aid to corrupt regimes.

              Regards
              Mr S

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              • K Offline
                kwistenbiebel
                last edited by

                Newsflash:
                The LHC of Geneva, Switserland has just been started for tests (wednesday 9.30 am CET).
                No incidents or black holes been spotted yet.The LHC will be at its full capacity somewhere in october. (source: Belgian newspaper website "De Morgen.be" 10 september)

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                • MarianM Offline
                  Marian
                  last edited by

                  If you are still talking about money and hope to stop the issue here, the US military spends hundreds of billions of dollars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States. In light of recent events please tell me that that money is used wisely. Tell them to divert a few billion to education, medical care which i'm sure does't have budgets of such magnitude, there's your real world problems, not important scientific research which in the long run can help us create the wonderful things we dream of, no world hunger,no poverty, flying cars, space exploration etc, etc.

                  Another end of the world averted, now we still have to look forward to 2012 and the comming of the planet Nibiru with the Anunaki...and probably a few more dozens of end of the world theories.

                  http://marian87.deviantart.com/

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                  • J Offline
                    James Fraser
                    last edited by

                    First, the LHC is safe. The kind of reactions it is going to simulate happen throughout the universe and even regularly in our own atmosphere, if something terrible was going to happen it is reasonable to assume it would have happened in the last few Billion years. In comparison it is far more likely that a large, rogue asteroid will slam into the atmosphere and annihilate all life on Earth (something we would be powerless to stop, by the way).

                    Second, we may not know exactly what we are going to get from these experiments, but that does not mean they are not important. Without research into quantum physics and semiconductors we would not have the computers on which to have this discussion or, indeed, the vast majority of electronic devices today. Products from particle accelerators and nuclear reactors include isotopes used to treat cancer and the most important parts of smoke detectors and have therefore saved countless lives to date.

                    Computer development has also always been driven by scientific research; not just the high powered stuff (supercomputers are a key part of theoretical physics), but spin-offs, such as the web, which was invented at CERN as a way for scientists to share their data.

                    As long as the machine works, it does not matter what the results are, they will help us understand the universe better. Even failure can be useful, the Michelson-Morely experiment is one of the most famous scientific failures, but the importance of discovering that the theory of the ether (as in a fixed field the earth moved relative to, rather than the chemical compound) was the main reason Michelson was awarded the 1907 Nobel Prize. Any new information is useful, even if it shows that your theory is wrong.

                    Oh, and if you are worried that I just got everything from Wikipedia and New Scientist, then I should mention that my degree is in astrophysics and some of my friends are now working at CERN.

                    http://www.FormFonts.com

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                    • GaieusG Offline
                      Gaieus
                      last edited by

                      Wow James,

                      Nice first post, considering you've been a member for about half a year (if you don't mind me mentioning it)!

                      Also if you don't mind (and Jacob and the others this OT question); what brought you to the SU World? (Asking this as an also "non-related" person) ๐Ÿ˜„

                      Gai...

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                      • R Offline
                        Ross Macintosh
                        last edited by

                        I get the feeling from this thread that this LHC thing is big news in Europe. Here on this side of the pond I hadn't heard of it until I saw this thread yesterday. To you European fans - would you care about this thing if it had been built in South America with non-European funding? I suspect this thing is rallying some pride in Europe - "look how we're cutting edge" - that gives it an emotional impact in Europe that is not happening here.

                        Today Google have featured it with their daily illustration.


                        lhc-sept10-google.gif

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                        • R Offline
                          remus
                          last edited by

                          Thats a good point ross, although i think its only fair really, as youve got the best space program ๐Ÿ˜„

                          http://remusrendering.wordpress.com/

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                          • P Offline
                            pav_3j
                            last edited by

                            i just love the serendipity in science, that is what makes it such a wonderfully interesting subject.

                            anyone thinking this LHC is a bad idea is exceptionally naive.

                            penicillin, post-it notes, the microwave, the pacemaker, superglue.

                            all examples of small expeiments which have yielded more than the scientist was hoping for.
                            imagine what discoveries can be made from this experiment.

                            personally, i am very excited by what could come of this, and i'm glad we live in a world where people are given the chance to experiment, learn, discover and inovate.
                            what if man had never discovered fire?

                            mankind can only benefit from this, and we shall all be richer for the work these scientists have put in.

                            unless they do make a black hole, that would be a bummer.

                            pav

                            Just won the 'Who is Least Competitive Championships' where trying to win will make you lose. Trying to lose makes you win which makes you lose. Not trying at all makes you lose which makes you win which makes you lose.

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                            • Alan FraserA Offline
                              Alan Fraser
                              last edited by

                              @remus said:

                              Thats a good point ross, although i think its only fair really, as youve got the best space program ๐Ÿ˜„

                              Canada has a space program? ๐Ÿ˜‰

                              3D Figures
                              Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
                              You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                              • GaieusG Offline
                                Gaieus
                                last edited by

                                @unknownuser said:

                                I'am still here.....the particles they say are the size of a mosquito. So the thought of two mosquito's colliding together causing the world to end are pretty unlikely ๐Ÿ˜’ They also say particles like these are always colliding anyway, without any bad side effects ๐Ÿ˜„

                                Hm... Neutrons are even smaller - and look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. ๐Ÿ˜’

                                Gai...

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                                • R Offline
                                  remus
                                  last edited by

                                  I was thinking in terms of continents ๐Ÿ‘

                                  http://remusrendering.wordpress.com/

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                                  • J Offline
                                    James Fraser
                                    last edited by

                                    Thanks Gaieus. Yes, I have just been lurking for a while, but someone asked for proof that people knew about the LHC, so I thought now might be the time to comment.

                                    I have been into computers for some time and had to use them a fair amount at university (my project involved analysing 10GB of simulation data and I wasn't doing that by hand); I have also always had a bit of an interest in modelling (I used to do wargaming, but was mainly interested in converting the figures and making scenery), SU gave me a nice way to combine the two. As a big fan of automation I am also looking at Ruby, which I think I am starting to get the hang of.

                                    Ross: I would still have been interested and would no doubt have read about it in Physics World, but it may have received less attention from the general media. I don't remember seeing that much about Fermilab over here, although I have a feeling there may have been something earlier in the year. Actually, in the scientific press I have read about Fermilab recently and I have to say that their financial situation is worrying, even more so that they are not alone.

                                    http://www.FormFonts.com

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                                    • M Offline
                                      Mr S
                                      last edited by

                                      Hi,

                                      I think this provides an excellent answer as to "why".

                                      @unknownuser said:

                                      Q: Can you tell me why we are doing this experiment? I can understand that you are hoping to reveal the origins of mass by smashing tiny particles together but what advantages (besides increase in knowledge) do you expect to obtain from this?

                                      @unknownuser said:

                                      A: Experiment is the basis of the scientific method, without which there would be no modern world as we know it.

                                      The quest to understand the smallest building blocks of nature and the forces that hold them together arguably began with the ancient Greeks, but it was only when we began to conduct experiments that we discovered the electron (1897), quantum mechanics (triggered by precision observations of the light emitted by elements when heated), X-rays, the atomic nucleus, radioactive decay... the list is practically endless.

                                      Without these experimental discoveries, and the subsequent deepening of our understanding of the Universe, there would be no electronics, no silicon chips or transistors, no medical imaging technology, no nuclear power stations, no X-rays or chemotherapy treatments for cancer... again an almost endless list.

                                      What this should teach us is two things. First, it is virtually impossible to deepen our understanding of Nature without experiments. Second, understanding Nature has never been a bad idea - indeed without the pioneers of the past century, our civilisation would be immeasurably poorer.

                                      I do not know what the continuation of this long and illustrious quest will lead to, but I would be extremely surprised if a writer called upon to defend scientific enquiry at the turn of the 22nd Century does not point to the LHC as the foundation of a hundred new technologies, each considered essential to our quality of life.

                                      Answer supplied by: Professor Brian Cox who is one of the LHC scientists at Cern.

                                      A near perfect explanation in my view.

                                      Oh boy, I really like this guy!

                                      He finishes his interview with this gem:

                                      @unknownuser said:

                                      I am in fact immensely irritated by the conspiracy theorists who spread this nonsense around and try to scare people. This non-story is symptomatic of a larger mistrust in science, particularly in the US, which includes intelligent design amongst other things.

                                      The only serious issue is why so many people who don't have the time or inclination to discover for themselves why this stuff is total crap have to be exposed to the opinions of these half-wits.

                                      Regards
                                      MR S

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                                      • G Offline
                                        geh4evr
                                        last edited by

                                        @gaieus said:

                                        what brought you to the SU World?

                                        Well, I think it was Google Earth that did that. I used to love the models from a site called Google Earth Hacks, Eventually I found out what program they used, Downloaded the Demo from @Last, and eventually bought it.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • GaieusG Offline
                                          Gaieus
                                          last edited by

                                          That site still exists (I'm also a member though browse it very rarely). I also stumbled upon SU incidentally (I'm not an architect or such).

                                          Gai...

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                                          • W Offline
                                            watkins
                                            last edited by

                                            Latest news: They have beams going in both directions. So, fingers in ears!!

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