@tomot said:

I have been looking for a better GUI solution. And quite frankly I'm disappointed that not more has happened with the Ruby API, since the release of SU7. It appears that Ruby is stuck where it is right now. And I'm not quite sure what Web Dialogs are going to do for SU going forward. I would like to hear from some of the other Ruby experts we have in this Forum. The attachment below may be a it ambitious but I would like to have the capability to produce such a GUI. And if Python has that capability, I'm on board.

Hello tomot,
You could easily write up a GUI for that with a very minimal amount of code using Tkinter, i will even write up a clone example if you want to see it!(send me a PM)

Python also has wxPython module available that will give you all the great and awesome power WX provides. Of course WX takes quite a bit more to code than Tkinter, but it is a very powerful toolkit for professional quality GUI's

The great thing about Tkinter is the "every day" SU scripter(and not just the pros) can write GUI code easily, and it is built right in to the Python language!

@tomot said:

Modo is capable of using Perl and Python scripting. Why should SU not embrace Python as well?

I can assure this group, if we could get Python into SU, people would love it. Let the users decide what language is better (heck let them have both!). Python has the docs, the built in GUI, and has been proven since 1991.

And you have my commitment to build the Python API. If some of you want to help out, great. If not i will make this happen and you can enjoy the benefits. These two languages are the only choices for scripting, but Python gives you the extra advantages that Ruby simply can't.

If we don't get Python. Some serious effort needs to be made to create a SU Ruby beginners tutorial, SU API doc improvements, a multi-line Ruby console, and a real GUI toolkit for Ruby! Web dialogs are no going to cut it. We need real File Dialogs, Message Boxes, Widgets, etc... and we need them NOW!

@avariant said:

I'm not much of a script programmer, my experience is mostly in c++ and c#. My forays into ruby are really my first experience with script languages. Not experiencing other choices, I'd have to pick ruby. I like that you can inherit classes; I don't like that it's a little to loose when it comes to that . I really like how easy it is to extend ruby with c and c++, and the tools available in c to communicate with ruby. I hate ruby's garbage collection (but that's only an issue when extending in c/c++). So good and bad, but having nothing to compare it against, I say it's good enough.

Avariant's pick: Ruby

You really need to check out Python. Your C mind will love it. Python supports full OOP and True procedural programming. No need to use instance vars (@var or @@var) when writing procedural code. Python is fully OOP. Here is a simple example of inheritance.

NOTE: the return line in the str() method is wrapping due to this groups display of text. this should be one line

class SchoolMember();
    def __init__(self, name, age);
        self.name = name
        self.age = age
    def __str__(self);
        return 'Name;"%s" Age;"%s"' % (
             self.name, self.age)

class Teacher(SchoolMember);
    def __init__(self, name, age, salary);
        SchoolMember.__init__(self, name, age)
        self.salary = salary
    def __str__(self);
        return '%s, Salery;%d' % (
            SchoolMember.__str__(self), self.marks)

class Student(SchoolMember); 
    def __init__(self, name, age, marks);
        SchoolMember.__init__(self, name, age)
        self.marks = marks
    def __str__(self);
        return '%s, Marks;%d' % (
            SchoolMember.__str__(self), self.marks)

t = Teacher('Mrs. Jones', 40, 30000)
s = Student('Jack', 23, 75)
for member in [t, s];
    print member

And here is the output from that session:

Name;Mrs. Jones, Age;40, Salary;30000
Name;Jack, Age;23, Marks;75

As to your liking of extending Ruby with C, the same can be done with Python using built-in ctypes. But for those who do not know C, or do not want to know C, Python has something much better, Pyrex, and Pysco.

@unknownuser said:

Pyrex -- is a language specially designed for writing Python extension modules. According to the Pyrex Web site, "It's designed to bridge the gap between the nice, high-level, easy-to-use world of Python and the messy, low-level world of C." Almost any piece of Python code is also valid Pyrex code, but you can add optional static type declarations to Pyrex code, making the declared objects run at C speed.

@unknownuser said:

Psyco -- to keep it very short -- is a just-in-time (JIT) compiler of Python code into (x86) machine code.

Python has everything a non-programmer to pro needs. A very highlevel language using common sense approach to programming, extendable with C, and easily flys with Pyrex and/or Pysco!

@david. said:

JJ, ...Threads like this will not end in anything but wasted time and hard feelings.

I carry no hard feeling towards anyone. I simply state my points, that's all. I welcome everyones point-of-view, even if they are totally against me. Free speech rules in my world.

It is good to question the status quo from time to time. Revolution is a very natural and needed process. And if you have to storm the palace and "let some heads roll", Oh well. It will be for the betterment of all mankind.

The advancement of knowledge/Technology is a never ending pursuit. Grow complacent and you shall grow extinct!

@unknownuser said:

OK, I'll bite.

C++.

For processing intensive scripts, the speed would be awesome.

Todd

OK Todd, Show the good people here a hello word program in C++ and then in Ruby and Python.

If you want to write a...
a.) OperatingSystem
b.) 3D game of the year
c.) Graphic Software(SU)
d.) Device Driver
...then C++ is your language.

It would take hundreds of lines of code to write even the simplest of scripts. And you would need to compile a version for every platform.

Sorry Toddy, low-levels are just not any good for scripting. With that attitude why not just use assembler? Or wait, i have an idea, just write binary 1's and 0's, and spoonfeed them to your processor

PS If you are really serious about scripting SU with C++, I hope at least you have a good carpal tunnel specialist on retainer

@remus said:

Are you a fan of python by any chance?

Maybe just a wee bit

@unknownuser said:

Although this doesn't require a language I know having the ability to record and save a set of proceedures as a macro (while building a model) would be useful and could be a replacement for a lot of simple rubies.

I very much agree for those needing a simple repetitive action or what-not. But here again you will be limited. You could do so much more with a little bit of code. Not only that, learning a few things about programming can be transfered to automating tasks on your machine, and/or other scripting languages/programs.

Programming is not rocket science, and scripting of an API is nothing more than saying to SU "Hey, do this if this condition: else do that". The base code is already there, all you have to do is call the methods(). Just as your car is already designed, engineered, and built for you, so is the SU API. All you have to do is put a little gas in, turn the key and go! It is really not as hard as you think. But i think the barrier here is Ruby. (see next section)

@pixero said:

How about a thread with ruby programming tutorials for everyone?

Very good idea, and I am already two steps ahead of you. I have started a tutorial for non-programmers. The main purpose is to get them over the initial "hump" quickly and show how easy it really is to write useful scripts. I have postponed it for now because i found as i was writing the tut, how teaching/learning would be so much more simple if Python were available.

SketchUp is changing the world of 3D modeling much the way Python changed the world of programming. I see a great future for this software. It is evolving rather quickly, and has brought many people to the wonders and joys of the modeling world(novice and professional alike). I only want to guarantee this future upwards evolution by giving people the common sense tools they need to wield the full power of this great application. SU is truly the only software i have seen that can carry the title of "21st century software"

The combination of Sketchup's intuitive and ground-breaking UI, coupled with the common sense approach and simplistic elegance of Python will be an unstoppable force. Not only will this expand SketchUp's influence, but will give a SketchUp user the complete power they need over the application -- in the quickest, and most painless way.

SU users need a language that...
1.) is easy to learn
2.) is widely supported
3.) is open source
4.) Has ample, AND clear documentation (most important)

*and if you can teach good programming principals in the process, what a plus!!

Python fits all these and then some. Modelers need to concentrate on modeling, but they also need the power scripting brings, and a lot of you do not realize this power yet, but i want to change that. If Python were here i would not need to write a tutorial, i would just point you to one of the great tuts that already exist out there.

For those that don't know anything about either language i will explain. Ruby and Python are by far the only two "very high level" languages that exist today(IMO) -- High level simply means easy to use.

Ruby is a language with lots of shortcuts and has many ways to do the same thing. But these shortcuts make learning the language painful for non-programmers, and even experienced guy's like myself. This is because there are more rules to learn, more syntax, and two scripts can look wildly different. Ruby is a direct descendant of Perl(a very powerful, but VERY cryptic language). If you are a Perl programmer, you would love Ruby.

But if you are a non-programmer or a C programmer, you will find Python very easy to learn. I believe Python is the perfect scripting language for any software. Python revolutionized programming the way SU revolutionized modeling. SU is made for modelers, not professional programmers, so I believe Ruby was the wrong choice in this regard. Not everybody wants to, or needs to script SU. But for those that do, i want to give you a fighting chance. The pros can learn any language, this is about making SU more useful to EVERY SINGLE USER.(and lots of pro's love Python too)

Let me tell you the perils that a SU user faces on his quest to learn SU scripting. The first thing this user must overcome is his sense of self worthlessness. The "I can't possibly write code" syndrome. Once this person finally builds enough self courage to overcome this monster, a new and more powerful one awaits around the corner. Poor documentation. I am not just talking about the SU API(which is better than most API's). This extends well into the world of Ruby itself. I have yet, in my months of looking to find a decent tutorial for the Ruby language that i can suggest for struggling SU users. There exist no Ruby tutorial that will ease a new programmer into the language. The SU API docs have some shortfalls too. They are missing some real good examples, and the links to example scripts are broken! This is a travesty to all new SU scripters.

PYTHON HISTORY
Python came into being around 1991 by a computer science genius named "Guido van Rossum". This man is truly a man before his time(currently works at Google). Python revolutionized the world of programming and showed other languages how easy programming should be. Python promotes good coding styles by indentation, syntax is clear, and choice of keywords is perfect. I like to think of Python as simplistic programming elegance. No other high level language can compete with Python.

There are literally hundreds, and i would say even into the thousands, of good free tutorials across the web for Python for all levels(beginner to pro). Not only is the language easy to learn, you will never be without clearly written tutorials for this language. The community is huge, and many people follow this language. Python is by far the easiest of all languages to learn for non-programmers and just as powerful as any other high level, i can speak from experience.

Hopefully people will come to their senses and demand a change or the inclusion of the Python programming language next to the Ruby API. For it will be for your benefit SU users.

PS: Did i mention that Python is Google's official language of choice. That Google uses Python in their search engine and applications. Python is also used by Nasa, Industrial Light and Magic, and many more respected people. It pretty much runs YouTube.

check here for more details
http://www.python.org/

@david. said:

I'm having difficulty finding any major differences between Python and Ruby. The "Hello World" example you cited can be coded exactly the same in Ruby.

Hello David,
You right, the hello world in Ruby looks exactly like Python

print "Hello World"

Python and Ruby share many likeness because Ruby took them from Python, which is OK, i don't mind. But Ruby and Python are very different also -- VERY different.

don't forget to scroll down on the Ruby code

RUBY WAY:

module YourNameSpace
  class MyClass
    def method1(arg)
        if arg == this
           do this
        elisf arg == that
           do that
        else
           do that
        end
    end
end
require "scriptname"
YourNameSpace;;MyClass.new

PYTHON WAY:

class MyClass;
  def method1(arg)
     if arg == this;
        do this
     elif arg == that;
         do that
     else;
        do that

from scriptname import MyClass
instance = MyClass()

First thing you will notice is how clean Python code looks to the eyeballs. No need to declare a module, The script IS the module. Now you have a nice clean namespace and did not even have to worry about it! Also notice Python does not use an ugly and redundant "end" statement.

This is just a very simple syntax comparison, wait until you try regular expressions, or string formatting, or list comprehensions (Oh wait, Ruby can't do that one).

Ruby looks too much like Perl. If you like S&M, well i guess Ruby is your language. If you want to get things done in the easiest and most painless way, Python is your common sense approach to everyday programming! Which makes it the perfect scripting language

@david. said:

... Ruby is not simply derived from Perl, it has also borrowed from Eiffel, Smalltalk, Lisp, and Ada.

And the best things about Ruby are borrowed from Python.

@unknownuser said:

1Q.)For the most part, I'm with Todd on this... why introduce another programming API into SU? It's not worth the effort. The quality of the SU Ruby API documentation has nothing to do with the choice of Ruby. It has everything to do with taking the time to produce. As in most software projects, documentation is generally the lowest priority on the schedule. That's certainly the case for the SU Ruby API. If Python had been chosen as the SU programming API, then I'd be in favor of keeping it. But, it wasn't.
2Q.)Do you think it would be a good investment of time to create another programming API for SU when one already exists? ...

These are all good questions and i will give good answers for them.

1A.) Look, an API is for users to wield the full power of an application(or maybe just automate a simple task), not so a few at the top can make money writing scripts because the language is poorly documented and overly complicated.

I have nothing against the professionals who want to write professional plug-in/scripts. But at least give the users of that application the common sense tools they need to get their scripting done, so don't handicap them with a poor language choice (Ruby)

I want to give every SU user the ability to write useful scripts for them selfs. My number one complaint about Ruby is Poor documentation. Ruby has no good free introductory tutorials. But Python has tons and tons of good free tutorials that cover vast amounts of programming tasks. At the following link, there are 300+ Python tutorials listed in more than 50 Categories, and this is just one site!!!

300+ tuts
http://www.awaretek.com/tutorials.html

Here is a list of nonprogrammer tuts:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers

Here is a list of experienced programmer tuts:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers

Ruby cannot touch the amount of good docs available for Python.

2A.) Yes, i absoulty think bringing in Python -- even next to Ruby -- would be a great idea. This would give all SU users the power they need. Not only do i think this is a great idea, i am willing to spend my time(free of charge)to make this happen. Even if i have to do it completely alone. That is my commitment! I have no will to make capital gains on the SU users. My goal is to extend their SU experience.

I plan write an introductory tut specifically targeted at SU users with no programming experience for SU Python scripting. Not only that, i plan a much better console for SU. You may say, why do we need a better console, a console is only good for trying out short pieces of code. I say Yes, this is exactly how a n00b learns. They type a command and see the results right away. The single line console in SU is almost useless and could easily be improved. Noobie's have a problem understanding how to format code to fit on one line.

Skethchup.active_model.selection[0].offset(-3)

or this

def f;for x in model.selection; x.this;x.that;end;end

All that does is serve to frustrate and defeat the user before they have a fighting chance. A multi-line console will ease the learning curve.

PYTHON GUI
Also Python has a built-in GUI(Tkinter). Tkinter is a very easy to use GUI toolkit, which contains all the main widgets a GUI needs, built right into the language. How would you like to have that on board for ya scripting pleasure, eh?

here is a Tkinter program that contains a button widget

from Tkinter import *
root = Tk()
def call(); print 'Hello SketchUp'
Button(root, text='Press Me', command=call).pack()
root.mainloop()

That short piece of code creates a main window with a button that prints 'Hello SketchUp'.

Look, i want to improve this great software for everyone. The more people we have coding, the more ideas and improvements we can bring to SU. Let's empower all SU users!!

@unknownuser said:

@jessejames said:

WOW!, your comments show a deep seeded hatred for Python. Where is this coming from Todd?

You are going down a dead end road, JJ. I don't know Python. I don't know how to wallpaper. I don't know how to ballroom dance. I don't know you. I hate none of the above. As it stands rights now, of the above, the only one I would care to learn about would be you!

Hello again Todd,
So you want to get to know me eh? A little chit chat? Ask away, these are free and open forums ASAIK

WOW!, your comments show a deep seeded hatred for Python. Where is this coming from Todd?

@unknownuser said:

C++ code - no big thang!!
I don't do Python.

With Python not only is it "no big thang"
There is no "THANG" at all!

print 'Hello World' 

sorry Todd, but that was a
(big one's really do fall harder!)

PS: That Ruby code could have been better
PPS: Do you want to try file I/O next ??

Hello Ross,
Yea, Blender has something like this so i know what you mean. Although you will be limited to what you can do in a system like that.

From your words it seems you would like to program but have not found a language that entices you. Have you looked at the Python Programming language? Most non-programmers find it very easy to pick up. Python takes a common sense approach to programming.

Actually Python and Ruby are equals in power, but they differ drastically in syntax and readability. Python allows for true procedural AND true OOP programming. Typically a student will find that learning basic programming principals thru a procedural approach is much easier. Then they can ease their way into OOP. OOP is not hard to understand, but taking on both at the same time is quite a daunting task.

I will even personally tutor you. I guarantee i could teach you to program in a very short period of time, and you will love it.(if you really want to)

You may wonder what it takes to be a programmer. I will tell you the secret -- Programming is perpetual problem solving -- The only skill you need is an ability to problem solve and a passion to solve problems.

If you are interested in that tutoring i am not kidding, send me a PM.

Ross's Vote: Alice

If you had a choice -- hypothetically -- what programming language would you prefer to script SU with? Would you stick with Ruby or use another. This is a morbid curiosity of mine.

I'll let you guys give your opinions. Any language is on the table here, so let the voting begin.

My Vote: Python

@david. said:

[snip] ...Your comments about readability when using "(...)" could be just as well applied to the "end" statement. BTW, I personally dislike Ruby's optional use of paren's, but I also like the readability of an end statement (not everyone uses good indentation practices, etc).
[snip]

Python forces indentation, so you would never have to worry about poorly indented code. Now your reasoning for keeping the end statement falls completely apart.

ps: Don't let the Gun and wanted poster fool you, i am a very easy going person

I see what you are saying, we can't just change something as important as the API because some person say's "hey this language is better or that language is better".

But what is the target audience for the SU Ruby API(or any API for that matter?) -- It is SU modelers, NOT professional programmers(although i am sure a few exist here). They need a language that is easy to learn, powerful, widely known, has a future, and most importantly has tons of good documentation. I think anybody (that actually knows Python and Ruby) will hands down agree that Python meets all these standards "ESPECIALLY" documentation. There are so many good tuts across the net that you would have to be blind not to find one. Python is easier to learn and will increase productivity. I am sorry but not only are the API docs lacking ,this poor amount of documentation extends into the world of Ruby. I have yet to find a GOOD, complete Ruby tutorial for non-programmers.

There exists now in the world of high-level languages only two big boys -- Python and Ruby. As far as i am concerned Python is the better of the two if learnability, and readability are your main concerns. I think Python is simplistic programming elegance! As Guido puts it. "Python is less footprint on the brain". I believe if you are an experienced Perl coder you will love Ruby, else you will find it quite confusing.

One of the really great things about Python is the support for true procedural style coding. Ruby's scoping rules won't allow true procedural code without using instance vars. A new programming student quest will be much less painless if they can start with a procedural style and ease into OOP (IMO). I love OOP, but trying to grasp OOP and general programming semantics at the same time can be quite painful. Not to mention that not every problem warrants the use of OOP's machinery, a lot of times OOP can be complete overkill.

Listen, if Ruby where the better language i would happily jump on the Ruby bandwagon and preach to the masses, but IMHO, Python is truly a better choice for any API.

I am not here to just run my mouth, i quite intend to back it up. I would like to have a "Pepsi Challenge" between Python and Ruby using non-programmers. I believe if given the option most (80% or more) would gravitate to Python. Anybody want to accept this challenge?

Have you even coded Ruby before? Do you understand what you are saying. If you mean to say that i am no Ruby Guru, then yes, you are right. But i know enough about languages to call Ruby out on some of it's asinine behaviors. My argument about the end statement is as follows...

Why use indentation AND the end statement at the same time? This is like putting two periods at the end of every sentence.. In any high level language today indentation should be standard. Braces, Lisps, and "end" statements are for low level languages. Put the burden on the machine, NOT on me! Python forged the path and showed everybody the way. Ruby can follow this path to it's great destiny or wander off into obscurity.

python code...

def function(arg1, arg2, arg3);
    if this;
        #...
    elif this;
       #...
    else;
       #...

Ruby code...

def function arg1 arg2 arg3
    if this
        #...
    elsif this
        #...
    else
        #...
    end
end

Python's way is clearly better. No need for an end statement. Python also forces parenthesis whether or not an argument is passed/expected. I believe this is where extra typing is justified. I can't tell you how many times i have to make multiple passes on a ruby script to visually parse the script. The "(" and ")" catch your eye and draw you in.

and so the battle begins....

@azuby said:

Please, please - no pros and cons between Ruby and Python. It would become a neverending thread. Ruby isn't file oriented and you can define your namespace (or mix-in) in more than one file.

I must say it is taking every ounce of energy to keep me from posting a Python version of that light class. My outlaw nature wants to post it -- real bad

Thanks Jimbo,
I was no aware of the ".instance_methods" method. This will help a lot.

@jim said:

@jessejames said:

I noticed quite a bit of name space pollution in the Ruby API.

What prompted that statement?

I noticed when i do obj.methods, and obj.private_methods, there is a lot of pollution in there. Names that obviously don't belong to that obj.

Python's handles this by making every script you write it's own module(the modulename is the actual file name). Depending on how you import, the names will be available in different forms, like i stated above. I believe this is a beautiful way of handling name space, and everything about Python is just beautiful! Sorry Ruby lovers .

I think SU would benefit greatly from a Python API. Python's simplistic elegance and common sense approach to programming just can't be beat! And you throw out that redundant end statement forever!

Python code is very pleasing to the eye, and very kind to your fingers.

here's your Ruby code....

module YourNameSpace
  class YourClass
    # ...
  end
end
YourNameSpace;;YourClass.new

heres the same Python code...

class YourClass;
    pass

That's it! no ugly end statment, no need to declare a module, just save the script and the modules name will be the file name. I could show you so much more. If you have never checked out Python i urge you to go to http://www.python.org, downoad 2.6 -- if you need help shoot me a message!

I noticed quite a bit of name space pollution in the Ruby API. What is causing this and how do i go about fixing it. I would think that all names within a script would only be available through a script_name.class() syntax, but that is not the case with Ruby -- it seems.

I'll have to explain using Python syntax...

import script
here all names would be accessed by "script.class_or_function_name"

from script import function1, Class1
only "function1" and "Class1" would be available

**from script import ***
any and all names would be imported into name space (this seems to be Ruby's only way)

these 3 options help keep pollution to a minimum or non-existent. What is the equivalent in Ruby? Methods seem to be strung around everywhere and it's quite aggravating when calling obj.methods or obj.private_methods