3D Truss Models

facer

I'm thinking the next thing I might tackle is an octagonal rafter roof. Something along these lines:

My time allotted to work on the plugin is very limited right now so I'm trying to decide if this would be something of interest for current and potential users of the plugin.

Medeek Truss - Nathaniel

A half octagon roof would be useful for greenhouses, tea rooms, and extensions to existing
houses, cafes and small offices. (refer to screencapture with red section marks)

I have been following your plugin using the "trial version" and a few thoughts come to mind:

**1. Keep it Simple (stupid). (KISS)**   No offence intended, it is a common "Check - design" mnemonic or mental stamp used with every new idea or concept.

Offering too many options although good can work against you until your market is tested.
Feedback is required as you may be going off into areas that users have little interest in.

If your market is architects, builders and designers; remember they chose their profession because
they have an interest in that area, not structural engineering. Of course there is a crossover but I bet most in the above list are mainly interested in how the truss affects their area of focus.

**2. Graphics help and assists in data input**.  A good example to view is the "1001 bits" plugin.

Graphics are important to aid the "non-engineer".

Colour, blocking of information that are linked or share associated areas would help.
Lists of data input are difficult to follow as there is no "road map" to where
it is leading.

**3. Preset options**with data toned in colour or grey with limited options for changes to key variables in white or a colour. ( e.g. roof slope angle) This would allow the user at a glance to focus in on set options.


**4. Truss design and engineering computations** are generally handled by "truss fabricators" here in Australia.  Their CAD drawings, computations and fabrication are part of their "full package software".


**5. The strength in your truss plugin is** allowing the architect, builder, client or designer, to understand better the likely design and construction issues for different truss options.

I congratulate you on your enthusiasm and I enjoy checking every few days
on what new truss you have considered.

All the best with your plugin.

Half octagone roof for Green houses, tea rooms and extensions.

viewtopic_octagon roof.jpg

medeek

Version 1.3.6 - 03.06.2016

Added Double Howe and Triple Howe common truss types.
Structural outlookers (vert. & horz.) enabled under advanced roof options for Common (Double & Triple Howe) truss types.

View model here:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=u456fbc36-6d2e-43ed-af05-5f9ad26f89b4

medeek

@facer

Thanks for the in depth feedback.

I think I might start with a full octagon roof (gazebos, greeenhouses) and then look at doing a half octagon. I need to give this a bit more thought.

1.) I agree too many options just slow the user down to the point that the software becomes clunky and hard to use. I've tried to minimize this by using an "advanced options" selection so that one can quickly generate geometry without being overly concerned with too many options and settings all at once.

2.) Part of the problem I think is that I am using the simple UI for my input prompts and I need to go to an html user input that I can better customize to my plugin. With html inputs I can provide better prompt and graphics.

3.) I have started working on the global settings (icon is in place). This will allow the user to setup certain variables to commonly used values. Along with this I am also considering other preferences like layer assignment.

4.) The truss engineering portion is very limited at this point and generally is only of value to a very specific crowd of users. Once I add in plywood gusset plates it will be much more useful to builders and DIYers who want to site build their own trusses. However, that will probably not be complete for another few months.

5.) The plugin has expanded to not only include roof trusses but also floor framing, floor trusses, and rafter framing. The hip roof framing needs considerable attention to make it more flexible and allow for complex roof construction.

My biggest problem is finding the time right now to really make some serious improvements to the plugin. The UI makeover is one such item. I will take a look at the 1001 bits plugin for ideas on the UI, and how to make it better.

pilou

Always cool!

medeek

Nine different truss profiles currently available within the Medeek Truss Plugin:

Common
Attic
Monopitch
Scissor
Tail Bearing
Dual Pitch
Bowstring
Bow Barrel
Floor (System 42)

View model here:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=ue9b30427-93a7-45c9-abdd-e35b18cac1de

Within the common truss family there are currently 11 configurations. The only significant configuration that I am missing is the Mod Fan (Triple Fan).

Are there any truss types I am missing that you would like to see added to the plugin?

medeek

Are you using a plugin to produce the multi-coloration?

I have a number of items that need addressing as far as the UI goes, it just seems like the list keeps getting longer.

One thing I've decided to add into the advanced options is a soffit cut for the tail of trusses and rafters, this seems to be a common enough request that I should give it some attention.

pilou

@unknownuser said:

Are you using a plugin to produce the multi-coloration?

Yes of course! As the previous by my hero Chris Fullmer (Random Painter) don't work anymore easilly for me for the last versions of SU i use a marvelous free one by Sdmitch!
(3 choices: Colors Sketchup, Gradiant (2 colors), Palettes-Random yes/not)
In your case all (groups/components) must be exploded to the level 0
Ask it to Sdmitch (it's not published) if you want something specific: Colors inside groups or components maybe!

Here with his tricky DeckBuilder!
(Select any horizontal tortured close surface! )
Et voilà!

medeek

Version 1.3.7 - 03.06.2016

Added Soffit Cut within Advanced Options for common fink truss type.

After I'm certain that this feature is robust I will add it to all other truss types and rafter roofs. For now it only applies to roofs that use a common fink truss (non-raised heel).

medeek

Here is one way to frame an octagonal roof. The basic hip elements were first created with the plugin. This is a study of this type of roof to see what is required to add it into the plugin:

View model here:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=u27fa9eb4-683a-4d0e-b77c-17427a401b6b

Another method would be to use an 8 faceted center block. Dewalt's framing book goes into some alternative methods in some detail. I prefer the method I have shown above because it is much easier to extrapolate the framing method to include elongated octagonal roofs. 8 common rafters and 8 hip rafters come together at the peak, seems like it would be a real pain to try and fasten these at the peak, perhaps someone could enlighten me on how a carpenter would actually put this together.

medeek

medeek

Looking at a number of house designs in SketchUp's 3D warehouse its becoming clear to me that most design work is devoid of any of the structural elements (wall framing, roof framing, foundation details etc...) and the primary concern is the layout of the space showing windows and doors. Typically the details are left to the builder or engineer.

I thoroughly enjoy working on this plugin but I'm beginning to doubt that it has any sort of widespread utility. In what circumstances would a house designer feel the need to use this plugin?

pbacot

For presentation purposes no, but many (a smaller number) are using SU for construction drawings.Some builders model the framing beforehand. Many people like the house builder plugin. Some people will like this.

medeek

I agree that the plugin does have some following but at the same time I should probably try and address things that are more "useful" to the builder, designer or engineer. I am trying to regauge the utility and appeal of the plugin. If I can add features that would attract more users and make it more useful to everyone that would be my ultimate goal.

I'm also considering working on a plugin for residential structural engineering, that would be used for vertical and lateral load analysis of conventional light wood frame structures. I would like to create a product that is comparable to the Woodworks Shearwall program but uses SketchUp as the principle user interface. I think this would prove quite useful to a number of engineers.

I will continue the development of the Truss Plugin but I will limit my time spent on it and only add new features or improvements as direct requests are made by users.

pilou

@unknownuser said:

In what circumstances would a house designer feel the need to use this plugin?

I believe that a carpenter for industrial or housing project can be interested in a such Truss detailed Plugin!

facer

Subject: 3D Truss Models

@medeek said:

I've recently added the ability in my online truss calculator to output SketchUp 3D geometry. The generated file uses the plugin method (.rb) where you simply drop the file into your SketchUp plugins folder. The plugin prompts the user for the number of trusses to draw and the truss spacing so that one can create the usual array of trusses for architectural models. For example 4 fink trusses @ 24" o/c would give you something like this:

or a single truss might be:

The truss calculator has been around for almost two years but this is the first time I considered providing an output for SketchUp. I'm not a Ruby programmer (perl is my thing) but I found the SketchUp API to be very easy to use and the Ruby programming fairly straight forward and less clunky than even Perl.

Currently only the "fink" truss has the SketchUp output, the truss calculator is located here:

http://design.medeek.com/calculator/calculator.pl

Technically this tool is geared toward the engineer but with the addition of the SketchUp output/functionality it might also be of some use for the DIYer who wants to draw up his/her own design in SketchUp.

Also note that there is a daily limit on the calculator since the server was getting hammered earlier this year and bandwidth became an issue.

==========================

3D Truss - where is its most likely market to the maximum number of users?

That question should be considered in the light of the three stages of design and documentation.

1. Concept Design (the basic or core idea)
This is where SketchUp excels. Layout of 3d spaces (plan in 3d), window and door locations,
orientation of building components in regards solar gain etc.

At this stage 3D Truss is more of a distraction than an aid.

2. Design Development(evolving the agreed design with the client, regulations, authorities etc)
This is the stage where construction and materials play a greater role.

3D Truss can assist the designer to understand what are the construction issues in regard
details. 3D Truss allows quick studies of roof types, layout etc in regards the required
structure.

3. Documentation for Building Permit.
This varies from country to country as to the evolved method of dealing with the structural
computations and granting of a building permit.

In Australia the structure design and computations are undertaken by structural engineers,
or companies that use software to verify the structural integrity.

The "key factor" is liability for the structure. If the roof blows off who is to be
sued and at what level. In this example the designer and the structural engineer will be
held to account, generally each to a varying percentage.

4. Truss Design in other CAD programs.

Chief Architect focuses on residential design and has a good user base.
Design work flow for complex residential is often:
a. SketchUp - Concept Design, Design Dev (1st stage)
b. Chief Architect - Design Dev (2nd stage - details and materials "locked in")
The above works in a similar way for ArchiCad and Revit.
The "important point" is that SketchUp is the most free flowing and spontaneous of CAD programs.
Now with 2016 and the option of creating IFC (Industry Foundation classes) for components it is easier
to integrate with the two major programs noted above. This mean that initial concept work done in
SketchUp is not lost in the 3D CAD workflow. This is a very import change and should be monitored.

This is why components created in 3D Truss should be classified IFC (simple) at the minimum.

I have attached pdf files from Chief Architects technical help section
https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/article/

You can download a free trial of Chief Architect X8 with use limited for a set time.

5. Surveys to find out what the user wants.
One free survey tool is:
SurveyMonkey: Free online survey software & questionnaire ...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/
Create and publish online surveys in minutes, and view results graphically and in real time. SurveyMonkey provides free online questionnaire and survey ..

Regards,
Ray

Creating a Vaulted Ceiling and Scissor Trusses.pdf

Creating an Attic Truss.pdf

Creating an Energy Heel Truss.pdf

Creating Roof Trusses.pdf

medeek

@facer

Based on what you are saying the Design/Development stage is still done largely in Chief Architect, ArchiCAD or Revit. SketchUp is assigned 1st stage only as a quick development tool. This is very similar to my own workflow. I sometimes will use SketchUp to quickly generate a 3D model for the customer but in the end I use AutoCAD to generate all of the construction documents. For me there is a big disconnect between both of these softwares and I end up redrawing everything manually within AutoCAD which is less than desirable.

Given that SketchUp is mostly used for stage 1 development then a detailed framing plugin would not be used at this stage. Basically the other softwares Chief Architect etc... have got this covered.

I appreciate you spelling out the current state of design workflow for a typical designer, this helps put things in more perspective and validates my own concerns and thinking.

@everyone

I do think a more advanced version of Housebuilder is something I should add as a separate plugin to compliment this plugin. I've actually had a number of requests from people on that.

About 50% of the features of the plugin have been driven by users requests. Feedback has been critical to the development and direction. Please continue to send in requests and I will do my very best to make them a reality.

facer

To be clear I am saying there are TWO STAGES in Design Development.

Stage 1 - This is the first look at the issues for discussion with a better understanding of the problem.
As noted SketchUp is the easier tool to use as it allows quick studies in a short
timeframe.

Stage 2 - This is undertaken when the "plan" is becoming "locked in" and only minor changes
are expected. At this stage the PRIMARY CAD PROGRAM ( ArchiCad, Revit or other)
are used as prior to SketchUp v16 the 3D model in SketchUp was "dumb" and their was
no link to the PRIMARY PROGRAM.

         **This has now changed with IFC classifications** (Industry Foundation Classification)
         of components that can be "read or interpreted by the PRIMARY PROGRAM.

         As a result the use of IFC will likely extend the use of SketchUp into
         Design Development Stage 2 **as CAD work done there is not "lost"**

         For medium to large firms (say 5 people plus) the cost of using a CAD operator on
         the PRIMARY PROGRAM is higher than using a second level CAD operator using SketchUp.
         Recent graduates from the schools of architecture are a good example of a
         second level CAD operator.  
         
         The cost of SketchUp Pro and plugins is substantially less than a PRIMARY PROGRAM.
         This would allow say two second level CAD operators to feed a PRIMARY CAD operator.
         This is all speculative on my part but the driving force is time and money, so it
         seems likely.

         Given this evolving change (if it happens?) plugins like 3D Truss will become
         more useful.

         Hope this clarifies my previous note.

medeek

One thing is for certain, I really need to incorporate the IFC classifications into the plugin. I've done some reading on the IFC but I'm still as yet a little unclear how to implement it.

At this point the plugin is still in a state of infancy, so it is safe to say it really is hard to gauge how much use or popularity it could have within the design community. I should probably continue to develop it as time allows and perhaps in a year or so I should have a better picture of what sort of following it might have.

I guess the honest question I would like to ask the SketchUp community is: Is this plugin something you need or would like to see?

If the answer is "no", then I have other ideas for plugins that I can divert my attention to.

If the answer is "yes", then I would like to continue developing this plugin and spend as much of my free time as possible to accelerate its development.

Here is the one question survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/59ZSZ8N

With the results here:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-TRZQ36SW/

facer

Your Survey will get lost in the comments etc. in this current thread.
Can it be entered as a "stand alone" survey as a NEW THREAD ENTRY.

Here is an example of what the Survey Question could look like:

Medeek Truss - Survey - please answer one question to assist plugin developer.

Go to survey - https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/59ZSZ8N

Results of survey - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-TRZQ36SW/

Question:
Is the Medeek Truss plugin something you need or would like to see?
(thread to 3D Truss Models, Medeek Truss plugin - http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323%26amp;t=63133)

Your Answer:
Yes or No in survey.
Plugin Developers Comment:
If the answer is "no", then I have other ideas for plugins that I can divert my attention to.

If the answer is "yes", then I would like to continue developing this plugin and spend as much of my free time as possible to accelerate its development.

=============================================================================================

Your existing input for a survey follows:

*I guess the honest question I would like to ask the SketchUp community is: Is this plugin something you need or would like to see?

If the answer is "no", then I have other ideas for plugins that I can divert my attention to.

If the answer is "yes", then I would like to continue developing this plugin and spend as much of my free time as possible to accelerate its development.

Here is the one question survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/59ZSZ8N

With the results here:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-TRZQ36SW/*

KrisM

Nathaniel,

I love your plug-in. However, I did find a restriction which affects what I normally do. I would normally consider the truss overhang to include the sub fascia. So for example, if I had a 24" overhang, the actual length of the truss tail would be 1' 10 1/2". To input the truss overhang, you present a drop down list which doesn't allow me to input this number. I'm not sure why you give a drop down list for this particular value but it would be nice to input a different value. Your use of drop down lists and user inserted values seems entirely appropriate in all the other fields, just not for this one.
KrisM