What would you charge for this?
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I could give some insight. What you'd have me do?
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If you wish you can give advise on pricing this.
The question is what is the price per unit in this project.
I do an average of 40 to 50 retail storefronts per season. The link is a set of examples of the types of fronts that are remodeled. Basically I build the downtown area completely. The architects have a camera somewhat like the google street-view machine except higher resolution. They take the shots so there is no travel involved. I build the existing structures and map the high-rez images to them. Once they are built I render shots as you see for each location and they are sent to the architect for redesign. We simply use pdfs to do markups. There may be one or two iterations depending on how complex the renovations are. I currently have a backlog of approx. 50 units to complete.
My price is very low but that is because I have been doing this for a long time and these models are easy to knock off. If you would like to give your thoughts on a unit price please do. (anyone)
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That's actually quite pretty. So that's mostly high quality photos on top of a basic building structure?
You make it look really nice.
What did you use to make your renderings? I'm still wrapping my head around making renderings.... I've only been successful using twilight render so far.
Here are two renderings I did for personal use and to practice... any tips on what settings to use for lighting, or where to get spherical backgrounds? I'm having a bear of a time finding good tips online for the lighting settings for exterior shots.
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I have to pose some questions:
Do you deliver both the model and image?
Or only image?
Do you create an image per renovation?
Any interiors?Then I'll make a couple of blunt statements considering it's just an image:
1 - I don't do that kind of stuff.
2 - I would be able to do it and I'd actually find it interesting for the first time...
3 - As it's 50 images of the same stuff and I would get bored, I'd probably find a nice guy that would do the work for me after I'd set up the procedure.
4 - I would charge €350+VAT per image.
5 - I would give them a discount of €300+VAT if they'd pay 25 images upfront and for each image I'd produce they'd pay me the corresponding half per image.
6 - I would be willing to negotiate a bit more but no less than 250€.
7 - With the upfront money I'd buy a Titan and, with Thea, I'd render that stuff in seconds.
8 - I'd try to find the right man for the job later,
9 - If I wouldn't find him or if I'd have some shortage of work, I'd do it myself at nights.
10 - They would be very lucky if that would happen because I would only be happy if in the end I would have managed to learn something with each image, improving my render skills while I'd work on the images, so I would take the chance to explore every possible way of rendering that sort of stuff and create way better images than those.I wouldn't take up the job if it would interfere with my architectural practice or my life in any way. Because of number 1 to 3.
I find my prices very cheap. Are they?
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@unknownuser said:
mostly high quality photos
That's how it starts but if you look close you will see a lot of texturing. Often the building owners want it to look like the original heritage site so I take samples from the photos and make textures. Either with algorithmic substance tools or PS or both. If brick is painted for example I peel back the paint. I use SU "make unique texture" often as well to paint in changes to the surfaces..i.e. many buildings have murals and I need to deliver the detail so I have to paint it in. Depending on the design I have the option of building mesh and materials or simply painting images.
You can see the evolution from paint to design suggestions in this sequence.
Foxcore you have asked some questions that I am going to answer tomorrow.
JQL you have made some interesting observations and suggestions and I am going to comment on them all as well but I have to go back to work.Cheers!...tomorrow!
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Foxcore you have asked some questions that I am going to answer tomorrow.
JQL you have made some interesting observations and suggestions and I am going to comment on them all as well but I have to go back to work.Cheers!...tomorrow![/quote]
Wow, that is really nice work! I see stuff like that online sometimes and just shake my head that I have no idea how to recreate it (the quality of the renderings.)
I like your process for bringing it from photos to life. I'd be very interested in learning either where to find better textures or how to make better textures. Cool info!
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Solo you are welcome to join in anytime. As JQL hinted, I think it might bore you to death.
I could actually use the help. Believe it or not I have 4 horses...Savana, Sky, Bell, and a big, old 8 year old race horse called Bee. Last week I made a mistake and fell of Savana breaking two of my ribs. I am glad I sit while I work but the pain has been a bit overwhelming at times. ......lets talk tomorrow...I got to go take an aspirin...
cheers! -
I like the work on the Hamilton house. Not sure of the facade style but the renderings work great. Probably helped them decide on the style as the later images architecture seems to come together better.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
8 - I'd try to find the right man for the job later
I'm available
You mean, I'd work for you right? I mean if you set up the procedure I'd render 10 of them. Let's face it you could do this with your leg over your shoulder. (Well you if you can do that with the leg, I have better job offers for you actually. None of them boring!)
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For this project I use Lumion. For a few reasons.
(I'm not here to sell Lumion so please don't start with the “too expensive” diatribes).People have distain for Lumion because of it's price but they miss a very valid point. The Lumion licence never looses it's value. It is like a little investment. When you are done you basically give it back to the community and get a refund. You can resell your own licence/key if you want anytime right on the Lumion Forum.
Secondly there is no rendering overhead at all....the render times on those shots was between 4 and 6 second.....lol....and that is stretching it. Basically I am selling modeling cause the rendering is free.
Lumion loves Collada files and so does Sketchup. You can throw just about any image at it via .dae and it returns a good render. Set-up time for those buildings is also measured in seconds not minutes or hours.
Lumion is the easiest rendering front-end you can buy. It takes no experience. (although the more you have the better your Lumion images will look just like all the other rendering machines. So if you are an artist you have the freedom to create some amazing images...If you don't believe that go look at the forum postings.
Enough!!
You said you are using twilight. That's smart. Twilight is very friendly as well and so it is a good place to start your rendering career because you can get some good results with it the first day. I think that you might even be able to use Twilight for a project like mine. It will not render as fast as Lumion but it is slick to set up and relatively fast.
I see a lot of good basic qualities in your renders. You need more detailed models, better constructed and mapped materials and more entourage..lol...(but so do all of us). You are on the right track you just need more time and practice.
I am working on a tutorial in which I sample the current brick from a heritage building and turn it into a tiling image with normal map. I feel like I have made a million wood textures so I may do a wood tutorial as well. I modeled wood textures for a building materials company for 3 years, you name it (including things like “quarter sawn oak”) I made it. I'm sorry, this is a promise for now to get them completed.
@pbacot. Thanks!
The facade on Hamilton House i.e. the front veranda is the heritage design. I research the old photos and try to bring back the old surfaces depending on the owners request. The brick color is the original color as well.
I create a few shots during the first iteration and the architect picks the 1 or 2 shots he likes and we continue the iterations using his choice.
No interiors (that is another separate project)
“I would charge 350”
I think that is about 600 Canadian. You could be right.
I would have to ask you at this point to post an image that you feel is worth 600 Canadian.
That way I know if we are in the ballpark.Sometimes a quote gives away a persons ability...i.e. Solo might quote 50 bucks on a job because it is something he can do in seconds...the next guy quotes the same job at 200 dollars because it takes him 400% longer to complete the job so he feels he should get his rate.....to bad he will never see it.
“if they pay 25 images up front.”
Frankly I would feel insulted if you asked me as a customer for a retainer There is no need for it (unless you are litigating) unless you are short of money to buy food. It sets a tone of mistrust. Create an image...cut an invoive...simple. If you do a good and timely job you will get paid the same way.“create better images than those” This is the quality that the customer asked for...no more...no less.
But based on your comment I would want to see an image from your recent work that is better, just to see what better means to you. ( but be careful...if you set my expectation with an image that takes you hours to complete, I will expect that level of quality for every shot. You might be digging a rather large hole for yourself.Cheers!
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@roland joseph said:
I would have to ask you at this point to post an image that you feel is worth 600 Canadian.
That way I know if we are in the ballpark.Roland I don't produce images for other architects. In fact I only did it once and I used those images to buy Thea. It was a job done in a very short time and I only knew Kerkythea at that time. This was made in a couple of days and it was the first time I rendered something with Thea. The price, was more or less the price we're talking about.
(You made me loose some time unzipping/finding the archived image.)
I wouldn't like to repeat something like this project as I didn't like the end result. But I learnt a zillion things and it was the first time I created my own HQ textures. (Stone on the floor). I wouldn't mind one of your storefronts though... maybe two if I wasn't happy with the first.
@roland joseph said:
Sometimes a quote gives away a persons ability...i.e. Solo might quote 50 bucks on a job because it is something he can do in seconds...the next guy quotes the same job at 200 dollars because it takes him 400% longer to complete the job so he feels he should get his rate.....to bad he will never see it.
There's no job that I accept where I haven't got to learn a lot of stuff for it to be acomplished. Usually that is what keeps me interested in working on architecture.
What I charge always takes that into consideration and I see that as a plus for my clients. I learn with them, they learn with me and in the end the job is very rewarding for both.
However with the above images I worked twice the time I charged because I knew there were a lot of guys capable of doing that better than me. However, that was a chance for me to learn and I was being paid on top of learning.
@roland joseph said:
“if they pay 25 images up front.”
Frankly I would feel insulted if you asked me as a customer for a retainer There is no need for it (unless you are litigating) unless you are short of money to buy food. It sets a tone of mistrust. Create an image...cut an invoive...simple. If you do a good and timely job you will get paid the same way.You're absolutely right! But I talked about this IF negotiation would happen. Basically, discounts are annoying. I don't like how people seem to only want our work if they get a discount. Other people raise their fees to a point they can lower with discounts. I always negotiate the discounts. I cut them a deal if they offer something in return. If I don't mind loosing the job I can still give a discount if the conditions are good or very good.
For me, this would be a boring job, wich wouldn't mean I wouldn't accept it gladly, under certain very good conditions.
@roland joseph said:
“create better images than those” This is the quality that the customer asked for...no more...no less.
I knew it! You're perfectly capable of more than that but you won't. This is the thing I can't pull of. This is where I always fail.
I never do what the client asks.
Even if I start from what the client asks me, I always do what I think it's right and feels interesting. If they'd ask me something like that I would push it to the limits. In the end I would have learnt something and the client would be surprised and much happier than before. This is what I strive for... always. (even on that render above the guy was with a smile on his face when he saw the image)
If the job isn't interesting, we can make it interesting and I bet that's why you talk about yourself as an uncreative person, wich is something that doesn't exist.
I also think that if the next guy will do it better for the same price, I loose the client. So I always do the best I can, wich is always better than before. I'm pretty sure I could do a better image than those, though I only tried this kind of job once (image above) and I didn't know all the stuff I do now.
@roland joseph said:
But based on your comment I would want to see an image from your recent work that is better, just to see what better means to you. ( but be careful...if you set my expectation with an image that takes you hours to complete, I will expect that level of quality for every shot. You might be digging a rather large hole for yourself.
In the case of your store fronts, the first image would be hard to achieve and would take hours, after the procedure would be set, it wouldn't take that much time.
But unfortunately I have no storefront to show you. I also almost have no images to show you that can relate to this kind of images as I'm not selling images, I deal with projects even if in that process I do produce our project's images and they have the purpose of selling.
What I mean is the images I produce are good for their objective but not perfect for yours. They are actually very flawed with basic flaws like toilet proxies falling off the wall, or floating trees, but in the middle of all the stuff that happens in one of our presetations or project meetings they are very good. So images are all good if they convey the message. It's just as you say
The purpose of our images is to test space, I don't need them perfect but I need to see absolutely physical correct lighting pouring inside the building. Perfect material textures and colors that really show what is going to be built and that's why I only use Thea.
However I would be able to use it to produce images with the same purpose as yours and I do think they would turn out better looking than those.
But I've got something for you! The recent images I have that have similarities to yours are from a small house project we have been working on. It uses matchphoto but it has an "housefront"... no "storefront".
It obviously took a lot of time to create as I had to design the whole project first...
The matchphoto was fast enough but it's absolutely precise as I will use it for city hall aproval... It certainly took longer than yours.
Rendering with Thea and my laptop takes hours, not minutes or even seconds... Of course if I was rendering a scene like yours, the laptop would be capable of doing it fast. However I have my whole project detailed photorealistically in 3d to the smallest point. I want to hit the render button in any place of the model and know that will be perfect when built. That is, for people who render scenes, stupid.
In the end I change the project because I don't like the amount of light I see, or because the reflections take away the warmy feeling. Or because that was not, after all, the rigth shade of white. That's what a render is used for, in my case... So not only it takes ages but I have to often restart it and I never create a clear render (with this puny laptop I wouldn't be able to work for days if I cleared my images). I stop working on the render when I know what's going to be built is perfect.
@roland joseph said:
Cheers!
Definetely Cheers! Keep it up as I'm learning a lot here!
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"they learn with me and in the end the job is very rewarding for both. "
I don't take creative licence except for hobby. Most of the time I have been given very detailed specifications. Right down to Latin names for vegetation.
There is no flat ground anywhere in my province but I am expected even with the retail units to geo-locate and scale accurately. The projects are sponsored by the government/townships and so the workflow is very formal.I think in many ways we are alike but just in different stages of our career....we want to learn, we want to produce work, we want our clients to be happy and impressed.
We want to be paid because we are skillful and we have some hard earned knowledge.I've learned that keeping healthy requires that I keep busy.
I will never turn away the opportunity to build a model....for example here is one from a week or so ago....ha...does that look like architecture to you.[img]
http://www.ibuildmodels.com/images/filter_water_3.jpg[/img]As far as the technical work goes. I have a very fast workstation. I have very powerful and very quick software. I have amazing speed with models that require a lot of rectangles...
lol.
I have rendering software that cuts hundreds of images by the minute if necessary so I don't render in a classic ray-trace fashion at all.
The quality I acquire is not ray-trace but with a little handiwork it can look close enough for the average person..... as in the example above of the water filter.
Because of those things I gain a lot of time per unit depending on my competition by a full order of magnitude. That gives me a very large margin.
It takes about 100$ of my time to put together a retail front. I mark that up to 200. It is then the property of the Architect for what ever purpose.You see as you know JQL, you are an Architect/Artist...I am an image factory.
My life isn't all that boring here is an on-going...the developer has just made the land purchase. I will be doing all the exteriors and interiors in this park. These image are from the first set I made when investment was being sought.
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"they learn with me and in the end the job is very rewarding for both. "
I don't take creative licence except for hobby. Most of the time I have been given very detailed specifications. Right down to latin names for vegetation.
There is no flat ground anywhere in my province but I am expected even with the retail units to geo-locate and scale accurately.
The projects are sponsored by the government/townships and so the workflow is very formal.I think in many ways we are alike but just in different stages of our career....we want to learn, we wamt to produce work, we want our clients to be happy and impressed.
We want to be payed because we are skillful and we have some hard earned knowledge.I've learned that keeping healthy requires that I keep busy.
I will never turn away the opportunity to build a model....for example here is one from a week or so ago....ha...does that look like architecture to you.
As far as the technical work goes. I have a very fast workstation. I have very powerful and very quick software. I have amazing speed with models that require a lot of rectangles...lol.
I have rendering software that cuts hundreds of images by the minute if nesessary so I don't render in a classic raytrace fashion at all.
The quality I aquire is not raytrace but with a little handywork it can look close enough for the average person..... as in the example above of the water filter.
Because of those things I gain a lot of time per unit depending on my competition by a full order of magnitude. That gives me a very large margin.
It takes about 100$ of my time to put together a retail front. I mark that up to 200. It is then the property of the Architect for what ever purpose.You see as you know JQL, you are an Architect/Artist...I am an image factory.
My life isn't all that boring here is an on-going...the developer has just made the land purchase. I will be doing all the exteriors and interiors in this park. These image are from the first set I made when investment was being sought.
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Sorry guys...I can't edit that mess....!!
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Please don't get me wrong Roland, I think your job is very well achieved and very to the point. I miss that solidity some times. If I wouldn't have the luck of doing what I do, I wish I could do what you do...
Certainly I would do it differently, but my concerns would be very close to yours.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
8 - I'd try to find the right man for the job later
I'm available
I could use the help. If you are between projects let me know. I have 12 of these left to complete. To tell you the truth I'm a little burnt out.
Ill put you in touch with the architects and you can take it from there. I have worked for them for years. They will pay you immediately for your work.
Solo, let me know if you are serious so I can explain what is needed and we can establish a cost per store front.
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I sent you an email.
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How did I miss this thread! - great discussion JQL & Bruce. Working on your own certainly requires a fine balance between having enough artistic interest in your work, satisfying clients, and paying the bills
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@unknownuser said:
having enough artistic interest in your work
I take on all projects with a lot of enthusiasm. This year I took on a job that amounted to building 100 store fronts. The first 10 I was learning, The next 20 I had the workflow down, the juices were flowing and I was making good time. The next twenty I was hoping the barn door was coming up soon. The next twenty I felt like I was on kilometer 30 of 40k. I only made it to 80 or so. The last 10 just about killed me. I was seeing double and all the colors and shapes seemed to be melding. I had to force my hands to the keyboard.
It is a good project....I just lost my mind with it. I reached a threshold of repetition that I could no longer cope with.
Thankfully someone here has taken over the project and he is doing a great job of bailing me out of trouble.....I won't mention a name.
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