Sign for Peace in Palestine UPDATE!
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I agree Mike this is not right.
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I can understand where you are coming from Ken and I agree two wrongs don't make a right. Both sides need to be flexible and its normally the stronger side that should be the most flexible. Is this case it looks to me that the Palestinians and the Israelis have to sit around a table with a totally independent arbitrator, some totally neutral country and reach an agreement. I actually think arbitration by Ireland could help as achieving peace in Northern Ireland was no easy task.
I'm also wondering if this is one of the main reasons for war, 'War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza’s Offshore Gas Fields'
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680 -
Ken,
As Mike has said, there is plenty of blame to be shared by both parties in this. Personally, I find the actions of both sides beyond contempt.
However, it is too easy to be diverted by debating the political rights and wrongs, whilst in the real world ordinary men women and children are suffering under the most appaling circumstances. This is what needs addressing now. My decision to sign the petition was wholly apolitical. For me, it is about doing what we can to stop the human suffering NOW. On that basis, discussing the rights and wrongs, in an effort to determine which side is worse, or less bad, feels uncomfortably like 'fiddling whilst Rome burns'. -
Mike and andyc
Thanks for not hammering me.
To put it bluntly, I have zero respect for people/nations that put children in harms way. Hiding behind women and children is an act that gets zero respect from me. No historical or present day wrong justifies this type of behavior.
Mike, I look at the natural gas map. It looks to me as there is plenty to go around. I just happen to work in the oil/gas recovery business. It would be nice if there was some possible cooperation there and both societies make gains.
However, drilling for gas or oil in a potential war zone would be catastrophic; personnel and environmental wise.
Now, I will back out, don't want to highjack your thread. Just wanted to point out, there are children and old people on both sides, that have a right to safe life.
Ken, gone. Mike, sorry about the thread high jack
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@andyc said:
Ken,
As Mike has said, there is plenty of blame to be shared by both parties in this. Personally, I find the actions of both sides beyond contempt.
However, it is too easy to be diverted by debating the political rights and wrongs, whilst in the real world ordinary men women and children are suffering under the most appaling circumstances. This is what needs addressing now. My decision to sign the petition was wholly apolitical. For me, it is about doing what we can to stop the human suffering NOW. On that basis, discussing the rights and wrongs, in an effort to determine which side is worse, or less bad, feels uncomfortably like 'fiddling whilst Rome burns'.I also signed in the hope that it might lead to pressure for a ceasefire and talks .... until a solid agreement is reached for both parties.
@unknownuser said:
Mike and andyc
Thanks for not hammering me.
To put it bluntly, I have zero respect for people/nations that put children in harms way. Hiding behind women and children is an act that gets zero respect from me. No historical or present day wrong justifies this type of behavior.
Mike, I look at the natural gas map. It looks to me as there is plenty to go around. I just happen to work in the oil/gas recovery business. It would be nice if there was some possible cooperation there and both societies make gains.
However, drilling for gas or oil in a potential war zone would be catastrophic; personnel and environmental wise.
Now, I will back out, don't want to highjack your thread. Just wanted to point out, there are children and old people on both sides, that have a right to safe life.
Ken, gone. Mike, sorry about the thread high jack
You have your opinion Ken and you are entitled to same. I can understand your stance with regard to not putting children in harms way.
Concerned people should try and keep this conflict on the agenda until a final lasting settlement is reached. Both sides have to come up with compromises that will work. Hopefully this will be done before matters escalate into something that spreads throughout the middle east. This looks to be the way things are heading at the moment.
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Lasting Peace: attempts unfailingly failed.
The suspicion is that in the Middle East prevail interest in keeping up the tension... -
Im with Ban Ki Moon on this.." stop fighting, start talking and take on the root causes of the conflict so we are not back to the same situation in another six months or a year"
Im for peace but wont go for a one-sided campaign. Hamas I believe has committed war crimes against its own people.
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@cuttingedge said:
Hamas I believe has committed war crimes against its own people.
No doubt about that. Hamas, in my opinion, is a band of criminals. They've been leveraging the Palestinian cause to further their own agenda for years. However, Israel is currently waging war, boots on the ground and all, against a populace that consists mostly of civilians and has nowhere to run. I hold the Israeli government in no higher esteem than I do Hamas. And the fact that we -by which I mean the EU- do nothing, makes me cringe.
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Freedom Fighters or Terrorists! It all depends on which side of the fence one is on.
I doubt the Israelis will ever defeat Hamas no more that the UK government could ever defeat the IRA or the US government the Taliban. In the end folks have to talk and do a deal .... the sooner the better.
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@mike lucey said:
Freedom Fighters or Terrorists! It all depends on which side of the fence one is on.
No. It is simpler than that. Freedom fighters target the state forces, terrorists target civilians.
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@bhoritz said:
@mike lucey said:
Freedom Fighters or Terrorists! It all depends on which side of the fence one is on.
No. It is simpler than that. Freedom fighters target the state forces, terrorists target civilians.
So are you saying that Israeli's are terrorists as they are killing women and children?
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Breaking news on the BBC website:
"At least 15 people have been killed and more than 200 injured when a UN-run school used as a shelter in Gaza was shelled, the Gaza health ministry says.
Hundreds of Palestinians were in the school in Beit Hanoun, fleeing heavy fighting in the area.
It is the fourth time that a UN facility has been hit in Israel's offensive against Hamas militants."
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Question: What is worse, using women and children as human shields or attacking targets knowing that women and children are being used as human shields?
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@solo said:
@bhoritz said:
@mike lucey said:
Freedom Fighters or Terrorists! It all depends on which side of the fence one is on.
No. It is simpler than that. Freedom fighters target the state forces, terrorists target civilians.
So are you saying that Israeli's are terrorists as they are killing women and children?
Targeting... (but I suppose you understood).
It is what you targets that makes the difference. War is war and you don't have control on all that happens.
But Hamas targets civilians in Israël without even bothering to fight soldiers and just trying to hurt as many civilians as they can.
IDF targets ennemies fighters hiding between civilians used as human shields.
If Israel had the same criminal ethos as Hamas, it wouldn't be just some hundreds deads.BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
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@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
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@solo said:
Question: What is worse, using women and children as human shields or attacking targets knowing that women and children are being used as human shields?
So you think that Israelis should stop trying to protect their own women and childrens from Hamas missiles to avoid hurting the palestinians women and children used as human shields by palestinians? That's silly.
And to answer your question: the worst is using your own women and childrens as human shields instead of putting yourself in the way to protect them.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
Question: What is worse, using women and children as human shields or attacking targets knowing that women and children are being used as human shields?
So you think that Israelis should stop trying to protect their own women and childrens from Hamas missiles to avoid hurting the palestinians women and children used as human shields by palestinians? That's silly.
And to answer your question: the worst is using your own women and childrens as human shields instead of putting yourself in the way to protect them.
Your opinion is obviously biased as you are Jewish, had you not had a horse in this race I'm sure you would have a different opinion.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
Ah ok, it is not the dying childrens that bother you, what you want is not stopping a war but a full palestinian victory. Not the same, at all... You should be clearer when argumenting.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
Ah ok, it is not the dying childrens that bother you, what you want is not stopping a war but a full palestinian victory. Not the same, at all... You should be clearer when argumenting.
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
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@solo said:
Your opinion is obviously biased as you are Jewish, had you not had a horse in this race I'm sure you would have a different opinion.
And no, I am not jewish (are you arab?), I am not even a great admirer of Israël that seems to have drifted from the state of its founders into a semi theocratic state looking more and more like other states around it.
But war is war and terrorism is terrorism. No state can accept to have missiles targeting its civil population without using its military forces to stop that. And if you fire missiles at your neighbour's civilians, you can't complain too much when he retaliates.
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