Economic Crisis - some advantages?!
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So in essence what you are saying is economic crisis's are a good thing as it attracts people to god?
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Pete, I don't read Cornel as saying that, it looks to be more of an observation which I believe to be true generally.
Let's stick to the main topic! We are always having a go at Cornel when he starts quoting the Bible at us. I notice in his first two posts there was no mention of the Bible. It was brought up by Elmer!
So back on topic!
I agree with Cornel that economic downturns do focus people of what is valuable to them at the end of the day. Fair enough, divorce figures do go down but suicide figures go up for men mostly because they bottle stuff up until in explodes. Women on the other had let it all out and think nothing of having a good old cry! I can remember the number of times I have cried as an adult! I'd say it is no more than 4 - 5 times! I don't include the little tears that appear when watching a sad movie.
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just looked up some stats on suicide rates in Europe. Not good news!
Greek woes drive up suicide rate
'Experts attribute rise to the country's economic crisis following release of statistics that show a 40% jump since last year'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/18/greek-woes-suicide-rate-highestHere in Ireland the picture is not much better,
Economic crisis pushing suicide rates up
'IRELAND has recorded its highest-ever number of suicides, with figures up by an astonishing 24% in 2009 compared to 2008.'
http://randomirishnews.com/2010/09/02/economic-crisis-pushing-suicide-rates-up/While driving the other day I was listening to the radio and a woman that has written a book of the subject. I did not catch the name of the book but she made some points that stuck in my mind.
One thought was that if the person contemplating suicide could manage to think about how the act would effect his loved ones and even people that are just acquaintances, he might not go any further. The woman said the problem was that the man (mostly) is normally in too deep a black hole to think rationally about others and to make it worse he can actually think that he would be doing everyone a favour!
I have been thinking about this drastic problem and feel that we all should keep in mind that a simple chat can mean a lot. I think most of the regulars here on the forums are a chatty bunch and tend to get things out rather than bottle stuff. Its a message that we should be spreading, 'Don't Bottle it, Blow it Out!'. After having a good chat with a friend or even an acquaintance about our troubles there is often a feeling of relieve, a good thing.
Has anyone any thoughts on this subject?
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Normal people do not want crisis...! Crises bring with them A LOT OF PROBLEMS, including those mentioned by Mike Lucey,
like increasing depression and suicide rate...I want to just laid down some POSITIVE ASPECTS of the crisis, if they're...
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Economic crisis provides us with multiple opportunities to SERVE, to HELP others. We do not know how long and how deep this crisis will be, but we know that there will be people in necessities around us ..., and we have the opportunity to ASSIST them.
Maybe there are worried people beside us ... It is good to urge them to choose God as Father, Who takes care of His own. Maybe people around us are disappointed, confused and shaken... We have the opportunity to approach them and talk to them about Jesus Christ, the One that does not disappoint on any man, the One who enriches the lives of all those who trust in Him.
Many need assistance..., and they are more open to the Gospel when need help!
A large-scale crisis of the society, offers unexpected opportunities for MINISTRY. Are we ready?!Atheists, do not be hypocrites! When we deal with acute crisis, famine, pestilences, disasters, wars, and so on, all of you believe in God, don’t you?!
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And this thread started off so well.
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Back to the original point. We had a recession in the 70's that coincided with "back to the land" sentiments, cooperatives, anti-materialism, and some spiritual seeking. (for better and worse). Cause and effect or not. I think it was partly a baby boomer glut of young people with lack of jobs. But I think less people were looking to God than to the government, and in some cases "alternative" income to help them out.
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Yeah Alan, I thought we were going to have an intelligent debate also
Cornel, It looks like Pete was right. I think we would prefer not to have this topic smothered with religion! Fair enough, if you or anyone else wants to pray to God for help, go ahead with our blessing
BTW, isn't it said,'God helps those, who help themselves!'.Now, how can we help ourselves? I think the first thing to do is try and fully understand what has happened to cause the problem also what is currently happening and then act to try and remedy the mess!
It looks like these are two major problem zones, USA and EU. The USA seem to be trying to 'money print' their way out of trouble instead of manufacturing their way out like they did in the past and the EU are imposing restrictions and no incentives! I can't see either of these envisaged solutions working. To get a picture of what's happening in Europe, this interactive graphic helps.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16098582I feel the only answer for Europe is total Union, one government in Brussels, in other words, the United States of Europe. I have a feeling that most sensible politicians know this deep down but are afraid to actually voice it in public for fear of not being re-elected into their cushy localised jobs.
If this happens (total Political Union) we would end up with a Government that would have the best from each country running our EU affairs! The current EU parliament looks to me to be a talking shop full of second rate political wannabes, its a joke! All we have to do is look at our local MEPs (Members of European Parliament), all they do is pass their time voting on what size a parsnip should be and such like, I'm serious. Now that push has come to shove, its Merkal and Zarcosy that have taken the reins! But I don't believe wither of them have the political skill to pull off a solution.
Another major problem is the balance of trade with China, Korea etc. Just looking around my house I see a huge amount of stuff that comes from China! One hand washes the other, as they say! Its not possible to continue doing business with others if they don't return the business! But again the Chinese plan would appear to be to buy up assets in other countries! I suppose it better than worrying about the 'Yellow Peril' that was high on the political agenda some decades ago.
The Big Corps are being short sighted also, how can they expect to see citizens of the West buy their products if they are being made in China? Maybe they don't! Possibly they are are on the gravy train for a quick kill! They are mobile of course and will move anywhere their is a buck to be saved or made. So they won't be the answer either.
We have been hearing conspiratorial rumors about a New World Order for quite a few year now. Maybe some of the ideas behind a New World Order might just improve the lot of humanity. For a benign New World Order to work for all, communication would have to work right down to the grass roots level. This has now become possible these days with the development and growth of the Internet. Just look at the upheavals in the many Arab states of late, its seems Twitter and FaceBook played a major part in information transmission.
The so called 'Power Brokers' often mentioned to be behind a New World Order are really a very small group / number of people! While they currently control the money / power situation, they cannot control citizens thinking, at least not citizens with some degree of public spirit.
So, I suppose the fist step is to voice your opinions. If enough do so, the politicos will realise that they had better do what the populous wants.
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@mike lucey said:
Now, how can we help ourselves? I think the first thing to do is try and fully understand what has happened to cause the problem also what is currently happening and then act to try and remedy the mess!
OK 'Mike L', start from CAUSES!
Can we propose something special, in the crisis situation in which we deep?! Most people, in crisis, are happy to survive ...!
Field more 'obvious' hit is the economic one, but the **ECONOMIC CRISIS (natural, manipulated ... or combined) ARE actually TRIGGERED AND FUELED BY OTHER TYPES OF CRISES, SUCH AS MORAL AND SPIRITUAL, plus social and political.**The economic crisis is that which 'bothers' more, other types being more easily tolerated/accepted ... God uses economic crises, (even those social or political) to open our eyes to the crisis of higher order: as moral and spiritual! -
@unknownuser said:
God uses economic crises, (even those social or political) to open our eyes to the crisis of higher order: as moral and spiritual!
Your argument doesn't make any sense to me. It has been my understanding that the Christian God is supposed to have given 'Man' freewill! Its obviously man's free will that has created this mess and its going to be a result of man's free will that get us out of this mess. I very much doubt that God or Gods have anything to do with it.
On the other hand if you are saying that God has caused this economic crises in order to encourage man to 'adore' him, that really is a sad situation. Its like a father causing ill to a child in order to gain respect. As a father of two children I could never countenance such an act.
So, I'd say, better to stay on topic and use, in your case, believed to be 'God given' and in my case 'evolved' intelligence to figure things out. If your God wants to row in with some help, I have no problem with that either
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This is an article well worth reading I think. Its on Edge,
CAN SCIENCE HELP SOLVE THE ECONOMIC CRISIS?
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/brown08/brown08_index.html -
@mike lucey said:
This is an article well worth reading I think. Its on Edge,
CAN SCIENCE HELP SOLVE THE ECONOMIC CRISIS?
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/brown08 ... index.htmlYou're right, ‘Mike L.’, that article appears to be seriously prepared, but, “separated from God we can do nothing” (John 15:5)
The crisis are REORIENTING us.
We always need RESEARCH, as David says:
“Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting” (Psalm 139:23-24)
King David knew that we could easily grab a wrong way ... We need correction, straightening of life, because sometimes we lose direction and correct vision. While economic crisis, we regain clear vision of reality and we focus on what is really important.So we begin to DISTINGUISH PRIORITIES and follow them more carefully, we come to recognize how much Jesus Christ was right when He advised us, referring to the heavenly Father:
“Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all other things will be given to you as well.” (Mattew 6:33)Crisis teaches us about DEPENDENCE on God and living through FAITH. When all goes well and we have plenty of money, it seems that we are sufficient, it seems that we have no need of something or someone, even of God...
The Lord allowed crises and reminds us how dependent we are on Him, and we begin to live by true faith. Those who always have all, in abundance, they have no intimate experience with the Lord...! -
I give up Cornel, no point in continuing this discussion
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@Mike Lucey
+1
If we can't save ourselves, we expect god to do this?
What is god? Our flexible creation of a father or something?
What is a shame?
Better. What means "acknowledged disgrace"? -
I see, it'sthe english language barrier.
Let's try this one. An old lady,
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@unknownuser said:
Does Crises, ‘bring’ us something...?!
At first they give us an ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF OURSELVES, and wipe to us the illusion and pretense that we are in control of situations and circumstances. Often, we have a false impression that we control our reality, forgetting that God is one who has.
Man is not above the times, and how things work does not depend on his skill and wisdom. As many ‘artifices’ would make the man, God is controlling everything...Many ignorants say that all is to ‘think positively’, to be 'logical', to not let yourself beaten or intimidated by the situation... etc., but, apart from God, all those measures are useless...
To experience great and useful things in our lives, it is necessary to be honest , to admit that we aren’t masters of situations, and that God decides every detail.What a load of drivel, only your kind can believe that crap, realists take charge and handle the situation themselves and not leave the problem to solve itself then thank god if it does or say it was not his will if it does not.
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Crisis bring us ‘breaking’ that we so need, eliminating the pride of our lives, and removing one of the biggest obstacles to God's mercy.
We resist to the will of God and give not Him free to act as He wants. We are almost always tempted to keep in our thoughts, and to self-appreciate in the condition in which we are…
Who never said seriously: “I want Your will to be done, not mine” , that needs ‘crushing’ and crisis shall not delay to appear ...!
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Does Crisis, ‘bring’ us something...?!
At first they give us an ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF OURSELVES, and wipe to us the illusion and pretense that we are in control of situations and circumstances. Often, we have a false impression that we control our reality, forgetting that God is one who has.
Man is not above the times, and how things work does not depend on his skill and wisdom. As many ‘artifices’ would make the man, God is controlling everything...Many ignorants say that all is to ‘think positively’, to be 'logical', to not let yourself beaten or intimidated by the situation... etc., but, apart from God, all those measures are useless...
To experience great and useful things in our lives, it is necessary to be honest , to admit that we aren’t masters of situations, and that God decides every detail. -
@unknownuser said:
Many ignorants say that all is to ‘think positively’, to be 'logical', to not let yourself beaten or intimidated by the situation... etc., but, apart from God, all those measures are useless...
To experience great and useful things in our lives, it is necessary to be honest , to admit that we aren’t masters of situations, and that God decides every detail.@unknownuser said:
Who never said seriously: “I want Your will to be done, not mine”
@Cornel
Sorry, but these don't sound very christian to me. At least as baptized an orthodox christian.
But honestly I'm not a christian, neither an enemy.
I pray for democracy and I have faith to humanity. It's time to fight. -
- What output crisis?!
- First of all, true knowledge and proximity to God!
We believe that we know God well, but we do not realize how superficial we are… Crisis help us to know Him properly, effectively, as He is, making possible the revelation of God in all His glory. Thus, the crisis come to know His wisdom, power, goodness, faithfulness, etc., and we depend on Him more and more.
We have the practice not to hope in the Lord, as long as we rely on other things. Then, crisis occur…, which eliminates any support in our lives, and we only have to turn to Him.
You can have all, in abundance, but, for example when a doctor lets you know that only God can heal you, and prolong your life, all your resources and relationships have no value…Due to the crisis, we start to obey God's will! Theoretically, we pray "Lord Thy will be done!", and many believers say this as a slogan, especially when things are going well ... Usually we do not change for the better, and not do the will of God because we are given exhortations and lessons…, but when we are in trouble. Then we are open to God, and allow Him to work changes in our lives …!
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