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    The curruption will (did) prevail - rant

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    • B Offline
      bellwells
      last edited by

      You know, had either Obama or McCain voted "NO" and come out and said: "Of all the bills the Senate has passed, this is NOT the one to contain pork", they would be the next president. The whole country should be pissed about this, and I think they are.

      Ron

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      • soloS Offline
        solo
        last edited by

        I thought about that, and yes that would have been a real "maverick" move, however if indeed the bill does not pass and the 'DOOM' scenario they warned of did happen, then we would have a whole different scenario, who wants to chance that? Imagine if you are the candidate that voted against it and the economy did the belly-up, everyones 401's crashed, lending ceased, depression hit, brokers jumping from windows (you get the picture)... the gamble is too great, both candidates, hold on, all representatives hate the bill, but anyone got a better idea?

        Personaly I have no debt, no mortgage, no credit card balances, a few blue chip investments (that seem safe so far) so why me worry?. I am a friggin liberal and I worry about the country as a whole, so yeah, I accept the losses and the hard to swollow tax increase (which will happen no matter who gets the White house)and hope that this is the last concession (seriously doubt it). I just want to see some regulation, some rules, some prevention for future situations. I am seriously pissed that it takes 'Pork spending' to pass this bill however.

        http://www.solos-art.com

        If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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        • B Offline
          bellwells
          last edited by

          Your points are well taken.....but we need leadership not politicians, ya know? I say there is a decent chance the House will reject it because of public outcry and then we're back to square one for the second time...deja vu all over again.

          The VP debate...................

          Ron

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          • T Offline
            tomsdesk
            last edited by

            Don't forget the $500 or $600 billion we've already signed over in the past few weeks.

            Even the economists who still don't think this will work are starting to climb on board the "hurry-up" wagon 'cause the gamblers are now jumping ship in droves...dumping what little assets that were left in the market into bonds. They think raising the FDIC safety net may at least stave off the JoeBlow bank runs that are just around the corner.

            I swear, if my measley IRA drops any further I'm gonna start looking for yachts to defecate in...the simple pleasures my be all I have left.

            http://www.tomsdesk.moonfruit.com/
            2.5D Trees & Shrubs!

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            • R Offline
              RickW
              last edited by

              @tomsdesk said:

              Rick, I believe you are reaching over all these recent morgage backed security shemes and scams that allowed outside individuals to skim off the capital that is needed now. I think you are ignoring the accompanying rut of fraudulant morgage qualifications, given to people who couldn't/shouldn't legally have been accepted into the programs you mentioned, in order to create more monopoly-money to play with.

              I repeat: creed, fraud, and conspiracy! If you want to call the politicians stupid for not anticipating corruption...no argument from me. But this problem was caused by crooks!

              Considering quite a bit of the fraud was occurring within Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (government entities), who were paying of dems like Frank to block oversight that would avert future fraud, then there's still political causes.

              I agree with you that greed played a huge part. I'm not trying to sound like I disagree. But the origins of the problem are political. The crooks just took the situation to its inevitable conclusion.

              RickW
              [www.smustard.com](http://www.smustard.com)

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              • T Offline
                tomsdesk
                last edited by

                My feeling is that we should prosecute the theft before we persecute the stupidity...above all, this outcome, especially the corrupted misuse of the legislation, was not the intent of the politicians (one would hope)...they just wanted to help a few more good people to qualify for the American dream.

                This recent pervading attitude that the victim is somehow always complicit in the crime is pure Horse-Pucky: without criminals there is no crime...and without this mindset there would be far fewer criminals. These guys walking away with millions from this mess should be treated as Enemy #1...and until they are history will repeat.

                http://www.tomsdesk.moonfruit.com/
                2.5D Trees & Shrubs!

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                • R Offline
                  RickW
                  last edited by

                  @tomsdesk said:

                  These guys walking away with millions from this mess should be treated as Enemy #1...and until they are history will repeat.

                  Are you talking about CEO's or Senators? 😉

                  RickW
                  [www.smustard.com](http://www.smustard.com)

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                  • R Offline
                    RickW
                    last edited by

                    @unknownuser said:

                    @unknownuser said:

                    Are you talking about CEO's or Senators?

                    Not my question so forgive me but those I have come to know were one in the same and traveled in the same circles.

                    No problem. It was a tongue-in-cheek question to tomsdesk that seemed timely after all the pork that got added to the "bailout" bill. 😠

                    RickW
                    [www.smustard.com](http://www.smustard.com)

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                    • T Offline
                      tomsdesk
                      last edited by

                      @rickw said:

                      Are you talking about CEO's or Senators? 😉

                      HeeHee!

                      I'm talking about anyone involved in the fraudulant behavior! The real money didn't disappear, it's still out there somewhere...in the hands of crooks it doesn't belong to.

                      Can you imagine how the market would tank if prosecution had been promised in the bailout bill...?

                      http://www.tomsdesk.moonfruit.com/
                      2.5D Trees & Shrubs!

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                      • pbacotP Offline
                        pbacot
                        last edited by

                        I don't think all the 700 billion has been handed out yet. Has it? But I get your point. There is none of the accountability they were talking about beforehand. Just one last handout from the Bush administration.

                        Also the point was that the banks were supposed to produce something: credit. Now you may think this is something made out of nothing, but that's what this country has been running on. Somehow the banks are not being any easier with the credit than they were, and no one's going to make them.

                        MacOSX MojaveSketchUp Pro v19 Twilight v2 Thea v3 PowerCADD

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                        • M Offline
                          Mr S
                          last edited by

                          @unknownuser said:

                          I'm talking about anyone involved in the fraudulant behavior! The real money didn't disappear, it's still out there somewhere...in the hands of crooks it doesn't belong to.

                          The fundamental reason for all the chaos is that the Capitalist monetary system is essentially a scam.

                          I strongly recommend listening to the following: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=z13TzFBtsWw
                          It lasts just over an hour, but it is an audio only clip so you can listen while you work etc.

                          It as an explantion, in laymans terms, of how so-called "national" banks such as the "Federal Reserve" or the "Bank of England" are actually cartels and NOT national banks controlled by their respective governments.

                          You may not agree with all that he says, I don't myself, but a lot of it helps make sense of the boom and bust nature of the capitalist system.
                          If the monetary system used is, at root, dishonest then it follows that everything else flowing from it is corrupted.

                          What does the future hold?
                          Well, we can all speculate, but what is certain is that no political or economic system lasts forever. As has been said before, "We live in interesting times".

                          Regards
                          Mr S

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                          • E Offline
                            ehaflett
                            last edited by

                            [quote="tomsdesk"]My feeling is that we should prosecute the theft before we persecute the stupidity...quote]

                            Great quote Tom, my feeling exactly.

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                            • pbacotP Offline
                              pbacot
                              last edited by

                              I would expect a Canadian to be more affected by what happens to Detroit than a Californian.

                              I, for one, am writing to my representatives. Just because no one's posting here, doesn't mean Americans are not trying to follow this and experiencing shock and awe.

                              It's not just a simple matter of rooting for a particular bill--but now this:

                              "Given the current weakened state of the US economy, we will consider other options, if necessary including use of the TARP program, to prevent a collapse of troubled automakers," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

                              This may be to your liking, but it underlines that somehow Congress has handed over more than 700 B to a lame duck administration to hand out at will. (and very lame--eats me up that we have to have yet another month of their stupefied dys-management and graft.)

                              MacOSX MojaveSketchUp Pro v19 Twilight v2 Thea v3 PowerCADD

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                              • M Offline
                                Mr S
                                last edited by

                                As I said in my previous post:

                                @unknownuser said:

                                If the monetary system used is, at root, dishonest then it follows that everything else flowing from it is corrupted.

                                The former chairman of the Nasdaq stock market has been arrested and charged with securities fraud, in what may be one of the biggest fraud cases yet.
                                Bernard Madoff ran a hedge fund which ran up $50bn (£33.5bn) of fraudulent losses and which he called "one big lie".

                                For more info (and don't believe for a minute that this is a one-off) visit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7779442.stm

                                The capitalist economic model is mostly conducted through the use of smoke and mirrors. We are all locked in to it, through no choice of our own, and because we have seen the collapse of various "socialist" economic systems we are all too scared to consider any alternatives.

                                We are in the horrible position of wanting to see the downfall of all these economic criminals but know that hundreds of millions of innocent victims (us!) could have our lives destroyed in the process.

                                Between a rock and a hard place comes to mind.

                                Regards
                                Mr S

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                                • S Offline
                                  sepo
                                  last edited by

                                  I would not go that far to blame Politicians for morgages given to people who do not have real means to repay. I am afraid all that is cooked by bankers. They have created model where they were betting on increase in productivity and prices steadily going up. It looked as easy win...but as capitalism is Sh**ty system which goes into boom and bust cycles then there is always one generation or two who do not remember last bust and they pay correction price...

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                                  • D Offline
                                    Double Espresso
                                    last edited by

                                    [quote="pbacot"]I would expect a Canadian to be more affected by what happens to Detroit than a Californian.

                                    Why?

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                                    • B Offline
                                      bellwells
                                      last edited by

                                      Capitalism is not at fault here; those who abuse it are. Blaming the system is like blaming cars for auto accidents or blaming guns for gun deaths.

                                      Ron

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                                      • honoluludesktopH Offline
                                        honoluludesktop
                                        last edited by

                                        Come on Ron, you wouldn't advocate no controlls on the distribution of drugs? Somewhere with every situation is a line that represents optimum balance. I personally favor free markets, but in hindsight not at the current pace deregulation was implemented.

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                                        • B Offline
                                          bellwells
                                          last edited by

                                          @honoluludesktop said:

                                          Come on Ron, you wouldn't advocate no controlls on the distribution of drugs? Somewhere with every situation is a line that represents optimum balance. I personally favor free markets, but in hindsight not at the current pace deregulation was implemented.

                                          I'm saying capitalism and free markets are inherently good. It's the practitioners who can mess it up. Certain governmental regulation is necessary, even desired. Finding the optimum balance, as you put it, is the goal.

                                          Ron

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                                          • pbacotP Offline
                                            pbacot
                                            last edited by

                                            @double espresso said:

                                            @pbacot said:

                                            I would expect a Canadian to be more affected by what happens to Detroit than a Californian.

                                            Why?

                                            Just proximity? I gathered you were from the "midwest" of Canada. My impression is there are a lot of industry trade ties, including the car business with the US midwest and Canada. California has a different economy to some extent. Not trying to make a big point, just in answer to what you said earlier, which I forget now... You know, we'll all definitely feel it if one or more of these giants falls. We all have dealerships for example. I've worked on jobs for some of them. They pull back, there's no dealership plans to draw etc. etc.

                                            MacOSX MojaveSketchUp Pro v19 Twilight v2 Thea v3 PowerCADD

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