BIM for SketchUp - again?

bigstick

Hi all,

Recently I have experienced an interesting situation which gives me reason to hope (again) that someone will implement a BIM framework for SketchUp using IFC.

I produced some initial design work for a large building in SketchUp, that was passed on to a large multidisciplinary practice to complete the design to construction stage. Instead of taking my 3d model, with all my carefully-detailed junctions and details, they recreated it in Revit - crudely. This lost a lot of the design sophistication, which had to be added back in manually later. Even then, some of it was still missing. Apart from the fact that some of the architectural subtlety was lost, it took quite a bit of time for them to recreate the model.

Once created, there was no way I could take the model back, play around with it and send it back with modifications/suggestions for development. Several of you may be aware of Secom's free IFC2skp plugin, which in theory would allow us to import 3d BIM data, but there is no way to get the information back out.

I accept the view that SketchUp is a design tool, not necessarily a BIM tool, and it does a different job - bit only up to a point.

Use of BIM is being required more and more often on large projects, and small companies that don't have the money to invest in hardware, software and training will be left out in the cold. I love using SU for designing, and don't want to use anything else. If the trend to prescribing BIm and making it a contract condition persists, more and more of us won't have the opportunity to use SU as much as we would like, and the quasi monopoly that AutoDesk have with BIM with Revit will get worse.

There are lots of plugin writers creating routines for doors, windows, walls, rafters, slabs etc. All the stuff that BIM uses. If we had a unified framework to attach IFC data to these, and a means of translating the skp data to IFC, then I believe we have all we need. Users wouldn't have to use the BIM/IFC stuff, but if a framework existed, any plugin writer could make use of it - if they wanted. There is a good chance we could continue to use SketchUp in the way we all love, with the tools we are used to, but also benefit from BIM if we need it. The whole building industry is moving towards BIM, and if we are not careful, we'll be left behind...

Thoughts?

ArCAD-UK

Still not convinced BIM is the wonder tool it's made out to be. It's still possible to have data exchange problems with a basic DWG file without adding the mysterious administrative burden of IFC.

I also believe SU is one of the best design tools out there! I'm certainly enjoying its ability to shape & manage my models & components. Think of it as a 21st Century drawing board, simple to use & practical in the real world where the builder needs clear simple drawings not a book full of data analysis.

Thoughts: Why if you had detailed all the junctions did you then outsource the CDs rather than continue to develop them in house?

bigstick

I agree with you about SU being one of the best design tools. Re-doing a SketchUp model in Revit is a bit like tracing a drawing in wax crayon!
I just think that the power could be leveraged to make SU more powerful - for people that want this.

I design my buildings entirely in SU, even down to doors and architraves. I would love to be able to translate this into a format that the rest of the design team can collaborate on. If the march towards BIM continues, I fear for smaller companies.

The simple answer to your question is that I work in local government, and due to resource limitations, we let all out major contracts using a D&B type arrangement. For everyone not in the UK, Design and Build is a form of contract we use, where the client provides a set of Employer's Requirements (which can be as simple as an outline brief, or a complex as a completed design including specification) which are sent out to tender for the contractor's consultant team to develop. The contractor in effect 'buys' the risk which produces a building which is more predictable in terms of time & cost than the alternative approaches, but also produces the most competitive prices.

If you manage the process properly (openly, collaboratively and fairly) you don't have to end up with compromises in design quality.

ArCAD-UK

So what do you think BIM offers that can't be done already?

I'm a one man band and still working through using SU for full CDs, but I see a versatile tool which through the use of layers & components allows for output in LO that does everything ArchiCAD has done for me over the last ten years. OK there may be speed benefits using some aspects of ArchiCAD, but the limitations are also frustrating and on balance if you know what you want, SU is in my view quicker and more adaptable for type of project and level of detail I put in to my drawings.

When it comes to analysis, SU can "Generate Report" to extract basic information or you can pull the figures direct from SU. Not used it in anger yet, but with Excel I'm sure I can get out what I need. As an example of using SU for analysis, I had a complex loft conversion a little while back modelled in ArchiCAD which required areas for heat loss calculation. I couldn't extract accurate figures from ArchiCAD and ended up producing a shell model in SU which gave me the figures I needed simply by labelling the various faces and adding them up. (Is it still ok to do addition manually? )

bigstick

@arcad-uk said:

So what do you think BIM offers that can't be done already?

Exchange data via IFC with other applications. I use SU with Vectorworks to prepare tender drawings. The import process is not 'intelligent' though and I get dumb geometry. If you have seen the German application Sprit (http://www.softtech.com/) which allows the whole round trip to and from SketchUp, it looks brilliant. Imagine having that facility with all the BIM modellers.

ArCAD-UK

An appropriate architectural reference that comes to mind is the Tower of Babel. CAD software companies will always have a hidden agenda that will confound the development of IFC or even 2D exchange, either for commercial advantage or purely down to the economics of developing a global data exchange mechanism. Don't hold your breath for a common solution anytime soon. In the mean time choose the tool that best fits the task.

Quite like the look of Spirit, but no advertised price on their web site?!

bigstick

In part, I agree. However IFC has been gaining ground for a while. Sure it's not perfect, most data translation isn't. However I don't buy the argument that says, "Companies have a vested interest in the status quo, so why bother?"

The common solution is here already. It's IFC. Other companies have invested in it and it definitely works - at least in part. The ability to create proper reports and exchange data with other disciplines using the easiest (and most enjoyable) tool to work with would be great.

If having IFC support in SU would be a good thing, why not? I defy anyone to look at what Spirit can do and not think that potentially there is a big missed opportunity. Even if all the functionality does is extend and improve the ability of SU to integrate with CAD applications in a similar way to Spirit, it would be a fantastic productivity boost.

George Bernard Shaw wrote, "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Putting up with a sub-optimal situation denies progress. I'm sure lots of users took the view that Sketchup wasn't great at complex curved geometry, so why should they bother trying. SketchUp has had such amazing advances due to some of the amazingly talented and generous plugin writers here, that this sort of thing ought to be perfectly achievable.

The debate isn't about whether IFC support should be implemented, because I think the benefits (at least for some users) are self-evident.

The questions for me are therefore about 'who', 'what' and 'how', not 'why'.

fionmacool

Hi there,

I recently gave a talk to the institute of architects in Dublin about advanced SU which I called "SketchUp to BIM". This title was chosen carefully to avoid the usual "heat" generated by using the words "SketchUp" and "BIM" in the same sentence, paragraph, chapter, book, or encyclopedia.

The talk didn't quite go as planned, in that it was (almost) taken over by a debate about why I was giving the talk in the first place. Wierd, seeing as most architects are using SU anyway, and if they weren't into SU, why didn't they let other more interested members attend? I will never know.

Rudeness and disrespect were also on display. Lets just say that I won't be giving any more free talks to architects institutes in Dublin. I am stronger and fitter since my talk. (cue insane laughter)

Here is a website I started on the subject. http://sketchup2bim.com/ Any information from interested parties to add to this website will be most welcome!

mitcorb

You asked for some thoughts: (they may be naive, uninformed, but here they are.)
From what I have seen of Revit(admittedly limited), as an example of a BIM tool, it appears at least on the information input side of things that the process is way too formalized and elaborate, requiring a whole new lexicon for some of the same elements in "traditional" data input. The program is so different that it has no(?) interoperability with Autocad, which itself has an abstruse, arcane menu heirarchy (meaning where to look for what tool?)
The point here would be if the industry is demanding the change, why build a product with such operator hurdles?

As far as Sketchup is concerned, What would this program be like if all of the usual complaints about the internal measuring units, small face thresholds, large distance difficulties, and large file obstacles were resolved in order to become a workable BIM solution? Would it become as unwieldy as the programs above? Could there be really two or three Sketchup's? The Free, the Pro, and the BIM Pro?

bigstick

There seems to be quite a lot of dissent in some quarters about whether it ought to be done. My view is that it is 'just' (I know I'm simplifying) attaching data to geometry and converting it to a new format. I was chatting to one of Bentley's senior programmers recently and I understand that there are inconsistencies with IFC data translation in other applications. This doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be done, but if there is enough demand (and come on, the ability to use SU models as part of an integrated BIM solution is rather cool) anything can be done.

The big benefits of SketchUp are its ease of use, affordability, massive user base and thriving community of developers.

@fionmacool - There doesn't seem to be a lot on your site right now. Are you familiar with Secom's IFC2SKP (http://www.ohyeahcad.com/ifc2skp/index.php) plugin?

I'm a bit intrigued as to why you had such a negative reaction to what sound to me like very useful ideas. I'm reminded of the famous quote by Henry Ford, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

@mitcorb - I think you have made some very valid points about the formalized input in Revit. It concerns me that the inflexibility of the tools might get in the way of elegant design. I do think SketchUp needs to evolve in terms of its geometry handling because working with large models can be painful, but I don't think any SU BIM solution need be anywhere near as complex as Revit. As far as I have seen, Autodesk buy applications that threaten their business model, then screw them up in an attempt to integrate and rationalise functionality with their existing products.

Pixero

+1

d_e_x

I'll re-open this thread with some fire: check this out - http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=41840

I think I have got the "framework" bit right. The intention is to create smart architectural objects in SketchUp, so that they can be exported as parametric primitives to other BIM engines. Although, the plugin does not have the import/export functionality yet, but I do believe that I have the right pieces in places to do so in a future version.

brewsky

Hi bigstick!

Count me in on this!
With a basic framework, anyone can create a building-part-exporter(whether it is for IFC, Revit-api or Archicad-api), without having to assign ALL that building-meta-data themselves!

In my opinion a greatly needed part is some sort of thick-faces-class.
Then you have basic properties for all planar-building-elements(wall, floor, roof). And an extrusion-class(based on the follow me principle) for all lineair elements(columns, window frames, architraves).

And only after these basic classes, start designing the upper level classes(with properties), like walls etc.

That's the way I'm trying to design the new version of my plugin.
But it would be great to create a common sketchup module that contains all that!

Cheers,
Jan

ZFRPS

BIM for sketchup +1

jim smith

I just saw this in "ArchDaily"

http://www.trelligence.com/demos/Affinity7_Sketchup.mp4

A plug in that links rooms and floor level information to a data base. Seems to add an interesting feature to the BIM potential of SketchUp. Has anyone on the forum tried it or have an idea of the pricing? They are very coy about giving a price, which is usually indicates it is out of sight.

bigstick

I saw that too. I have to say that I don't quite understand the point of the Affinity product. If it's just for scheduling areas, it seems a bit overkill to me.

This does highlight a very interesting question though, "To what extent should SketchUp implement BIM features?"

From my own personal (selfish) point of view, I could see how creation of 'intelligent' BIM objects like walls, doors, floors, roofs etc, that allow data exchange with other BIM apps via IFC would be the only real features I would need. The complicated stuff like scheduling rooms and objects could be left to the pure BIM applications.

This I suppose raises the even more fundamental question of, "What is the actual objective of implementing BIM features in SketchUp?"

Again (just) for me it is data exchange with other apps, so that I can keep modelling and designing with SketchUp, but keep my model, imported into another application, for creating 2d documentation.

The ability to have a round trip from SketchUp to a BIM app, then back into SketchUp (and back again) would be the ultimate solution. Spirit CAD already does this, but I don't know how it works with IFC, or how data translation works with other BIM apps.

My own view on the business of BIM is that it will never work effectively unless there is proper data translation between applications. Having the whole design team just use Revit is great for Autodesk, but no-one else. However if the architects could use ArchiCAD, the Engineers Revit, FM managers something else, all operating from the same geometry and attached data, that makes for a much neater solution. Each discipline only needs to concern themselves with the tools they need. The building data then becomes the focus, not any particular software package.

Pout

It's a lot on how far do you want to go? And how many Sketchup users have the need for BIM?

Get/Send data from and to a database from Sketchup is not that hard, we already do it in our software.
Link images, costs, planning, resources can be done already. Show it in charts, automated powerpoints, movies, automatically created BOQ or BOM. We have prototypes developed for this.

I'm not trying to sell anything here, I'm just saying that the technical part is not the issue.
The main issue is the communication between all CAD/BIM software and Sketchup in both ways. And if IFC is the 'magic' format.

I'm very fond of the idea of trying to create a certain level of BIM into Sketchup, to have the opportunity to get the information you want into the model and get added value out of it. But the interchangeability is an important factor.

pbacot

"What is the actual objective of implementing BIM features in SketchUp?"

I think it will be driven as far as it goes, given the enthusiasm shown so far.

For my own purposes and I think for many users, the front-end promises of BIM will be more important:

Parametric or systematic creations of building elements (walls, floors, foundations etc.) that can be modified later based on intrinsic qualities of each.
Placement of elements (windows doors equipment) based on defaults that make sense for those elements. Ease in revisions for these.
Ability to work in plan view, adding or editing elements and have automatic model updates.
Schedules for rooms, doors, windows,and equipment. Hot linked details. Automated notation systems.
Generation of structural elements inside model based on designated assemblies.

I am less concerned with the high-end details for "real" buildings (skyscrapers, museums etc.) than some features close to Chief Architect, for example. I don't need to make take-offs or maintenance schedules, or show all piping and wiring for the types of projects I do. I know this is important in large projects and in some cases the architect or designer must do more of this. I think it is true of most of the US, architects don't provide a bill of materials. That's the contractors' job. And few contractors in our milieu even use CAD. I understand it is different in Europe.
I think this is probably true for a lot of users, but BIM will be driven by the needs of high-end users, and we all can benefit.

bigstick

Translating data in theory is easy enough. It depends on the amount of the data, how well the standards are documented, and how easy it is to format the data. The more complex it is the more likely it is to create problems.

Even translating dwg data between different packages is not always 100% consistent. Sure the lines work, but things like viewports, dimensions, symbols and attributes (particularly when these two are linked) are more complex and don't always translate neatly.

The point about BIM is that you need confidence in the validity/consistency of your data after translation. The true benefits of BIM can only be realised if the whole design team make use of it. If one wants to use this type software in a meaningful and flexible way, it needs compatibility with as many other apps as possible.

Only IFC will do this with 3d data. What other open BIM formats are there?

Pixero

I'm very exited about the possibility to "sketch" BIM in SU and export it to Revit (which is our companys software of choice for the future).
For me the most important feature is a working exporter so we can start using what's been done already and find what features we "really" need.
Haven't seen any exporter yet though...