Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad Pakistan
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@honoluludesktop said:
Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
Pretty much every country that's abolished capital punishment, doesn't circumvent the Geneva Conventions, doesn't illegally abduct foreign nationals, doesn't torture, etc.
Imagine these scenarios:
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I get apprehended on the suspicion of terrorism by the Dutch authorities. If formally charged, I get to have a lawyer. There'll be a trial. Of course - I have rights.
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I get apprehended on the suspicion of terrorism by the US authorities. They blindfold me and put me on a plane. For the next three months or so I'm subjected to physical and psychological torture at a 'black site'. No-one knows where I am. I re-emerge in Guantanamo. There's no charges, no lawyer, no trial. I could be in there for years - even if there'd be no evidence against me. I have no rights, see.
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@unknownuser said:
Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
If your standard for democracy and individual rights is bombing of innocent civilians without the real target at all (later showcase, don't close your eyes)...
hmmmm... I really don't know any other country that is doing even close for it! -
@unknownuser said:
Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
Personaly I think the USA's patriot act is doing the opposite of what it was intended to do....or is it doing exactly what they wanted?
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I have to add another example to stinkies:
A bizzare problem has made a stir in Serbia recently. A married couple in the U.S, immigrants from Serbia, was prosecuted for keeping photos of their little 4 years old daughter in a bath, naked of course, and their 7 years old son, also naked. It turned out that some of the photos were taken by their son and some took their parents. Children are taken away from their parents and the father was imprisoned and then released from jail on bail. No need to say the family is going through a hell, and for nothing really.
, free country, don't you think?
After the reaction and help from others, after many months of being separated from children:
http://usaserbs.net/news-usa/181-serbian-family-nastic-could-get-up-to-5000000-from-usa.html -
@unknownuser said:
......Pretty much every country that's abolished capital punishment, doesn't circumvent the Geneva Conventions, doesn't illegally abduct foreign nationals, doesn't torture, etc....
I get the ideals, but which countries?
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@honoluludesktop said:
@unknownuser said:
......Pretty much every country that's abolished capital punishment, doesn't circumvent the Geneva Conventions, doesn't illegally abduct foreign nationals, doesn't torture, etc....
I get the ideals, but which countries?
It's no longer an ideal, it's in practice in at least (random order):
Sweden. Norway. Finland. Denmark. Iceland. The Netherlands. Belgium. Germany. Luxembourg. Austria. Switzerland. France. Spain. Portugal. Italy. Greece. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Poland. Czech republic. Hungary. Slovakia. Slovenia. Croatia. Malta. Great Britain. Ireland.This is not to say that there is a country with no human rights problems at all, but my in my list they are the smallest.
I confess to being something like an EU patriot...Anssi
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@mike lucey said:
Guys,
I am taking all this with a grain of salt until its proven! From what I understand he was shot in the eye while using one of his wives as a shield! Its claimed that this particular wife was also shot dead!
Due to the rubbish claims, it now appears the US authorities are debating whether or not to show pictures of OBL's corpse on 'taste grounds'! When I heard he was 'buried at sea' I had to laugh!
It looks like the US Navy Seals had him cornered! Why the hell wasn't he captured and put on trial in a civilized manner under UN jurisdiction as there are a lot of questions to be answered or at least asked!
As I said, it looks like a load of old cobblers and possibly a PR stunt by OB?
My thoughts exactly!! The whole thing seems a bit outrageous..... In other words, I ain't believing 'em yet.
Cheers,
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@anssi said:
....It's no longer an ideal, it's in practice in at least (random order):
Sweden. Norway. Finland. Denmark. Iceland. The Netherlands. Belgium. Germany. Luxembourg. Austria. Switzerland. France. Spain. Portugal. Italy. Greece. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Poland. Czech republic. Hungary. Slovakia. Slovenia. Croatia. Malta. Great Britain. Ireland.
.......And, I confess, that I didn't expect a answer. Certainly by the criteria previously stated, the UK, and France can not be part of the list by virtue of their actions in Libya. I won't do it, but I expect that I don't have to look far for exceptions in any country.
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@honoluludesktop said:
I won't do it, but I expect that I don't have to look far for exceptions in any country.
True! - no country should sit on its *ss. There's plenty to be done still. Nonetheless: the US's track record of the past decade is much worse than that of most other Western countries. Mr. Bush's legacy, if you will (I'd not like to be in Obama's shoes!). If I had my way, the man would be tried.
Enough politics for now. The house needs cleaning.
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In the meanwhile of this interesting discussion, let me insert this video that surely will fulfill **Frederik**´s claim about conspiracy theory :
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@honoluludesktop said:
How ! Good question. I for one believe in social evolution.
Hi,
honoluludesktop
you got me thinking on it.
And I have found out that I prefer to believe in an individual_personal evolution. On history time as yours.
Because, where is that social evolution lead us to ? In the best of the cases to a social development of Democracy, is it ?
A society of individuals who relates themselves in an orderly way, so to speak.
(For the sake of that purpose we allow ourselves now to destroy other´s ways of relationship. The reason today for doing that is because we feel that we are being attacked from those others undemocratic places.)
That is how it goes. So when we win we wil now have that social democratic evolution almost fulfilled.
And then, what ?
The same life as now. There will be a power we can throw out every now and then and keep living. That will be all.
Whilst if you believe in individual evolution anything one can imagine is possible.
I believe man has a transcendental urge somewhere in his existence.
No matter what time in history he is to live. Thus, the way to relate ourselves with others has to be discussed every time. But the need for freedom, for individual freedom, has always been, I believe. So better change the chip of the mind, no ? -
I believe (perhaps unfortunately) that one of the engines that drives the move to democracy is population growth. Without the increasing number of people to use cell phones, there would be no money to advance that technology. As long as profits are to be made, and the population grows, the people's natural "will for freedom" increasingly becomes an factor that must be considered in the decisions that promote profit.
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srx, and others, I realize that ideally, there is no justification for killing innocent civilians at any time, by anyone. Yet how can a Government of individuals operate without politics. History demonstrates that no responsible man remains untouched, and uncompromised. Without politics, there is no order amoung individuals.
I understand those with pain from expierence to some degree. Perhaps because I have been spared, I am more moderate.
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I sit and read everyone’s post here about politics, the American government, if Osama bin laden is really dead and if they had him surrounded why didn’t they just capture him and bring him to justice. I ponder some of these questions myself. I would‘ve loved to see him in general population in a prison somewhere but the way our system seems to work at times, he more than likely would’ve gotten a mistrial for some technicality and the Navy seal would’ve been sent to prison for mistreating him! Osama bin laden would’ve lived out the rest of his days in Alabama or Kentucky somewhere receiving welfare and food stamps off the backs of the American people. I also wonder if they would’ve captured him and brought him to trail and someone happens to get a wild hair and shoots him on the way into the courthouse what would’ve happened to that person, surly this person would be brought to justice! I love my country I so try hard to love her but I see the unmistakable spiral down and all the countries out there that seem to think their better at Democracy, and individual rights will soon I’m afraid get their chance to prove it.
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@honoluludesktop said:
History demonstrates that no responsible man remains untouched, and uncompromised.
True. We agree in this regard. Yet some politicans misuse the concept of 'the burden of responsibility' to force their own, all too exclusive agenda. (Anecdote: my girlfriend and myself were invited to dinner at a high-ranking NATO official's some time ago. As the evening progressed, the topic of conversation shifted to politics. At one point I asked the NATO official why he'd thought George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq - as I'd never been able to quite work that one out. After an uneasy silence, he said: "It was personal." I apologize for bringing up Bush again, I really do.)
@unknownuser said:
Osama bin laden would’ve lived out the rest of his days in Alabama or Kentucky somewhere receiving welfare and food stamps off the backs of the American people.
An astute analysis.
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@honoluludesktop said:
srx, and others,
hummm, well, at least, i am others
cheers up ¡¡¡ 
@honoluludesktop said:
Without politics, there is no order amoung individuals.
It is Love not Politics which creates order among individuals.
My thought,
So to say. Sorry**Honoluludesktop**. -
did you see my last link ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLuw1N8RsyA
it was about profit
and**prophets** -
Didn't realize I might have to defend American from unsubstantiated personal opinions. It appears that you judge us poorly regarding defending ourselves against a enemy that has killed thousands of people in America, then hides in a someone else's country. Doesn't the English government work with America in defense of its own citizens from the terrorist attacks of Al Qaeda?
At least use the best source of information to form an opinion. While not accurate at all times, the White House briefings do attempt to correct erroneous statements.
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I'd like to raise a slightly different point:
In 1980 there was a siege of the Iranian embassy in London after it had been taken over by Iranian Arab separatists. The siege was ended when the SAS controversially stormed the building in Operation Nimrod killing 5 of the 6 hostile occupants who were members of the DMRA (Democratic Revolutionary Movement for the Liberation of Arabistan), a group that was virtually unknown before they seized this building. The incident was filmed and broadcast live by the BBC and ITN. News teams were camped outside the embassy. A unit from the British news organisation ITN, using recently introduced Electronic News Gathering (ENG) camera equipment, managed to establish a viewpoint at the rear of the embassy. It was images from this vantage point that showed the SAS raid on the building live on television after their correspondent had been 'tipped off'. (However the SAS insisted on a short time-delay between the live events and their broadcast in case the militants were watching the broadcasts). The footage is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p4DmuGyehc
source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Embassy_SiegeAnd this was in 1980's Britain where as a nation we generally did things discreetly and with very limited resources.
You are telling me that Barrack Obama and the US government with their record of showmanship, aren't releasing the film of the demise of the greatest criminal of our time because of some supposed higher principles?!
Or their consideration that they might make OBL an idol - He already is to his followers. -
@honoluludesktop said:
It appears that you judge us poorly regarding defending ourselves against a enemy that has killed thousands of people in America, then hides in a someone else's country.
Whoa, whoa - you got it backwards. One cannot 'defend' oneself against atrocities that have already happened. You can, obviously, bring the culprit to justice, but the way things are looking at the moment, that wasn't the prime objective. Revenge, and boosting Obama's popularity in all likelyhood were. Do I particulary care Bin Laden is dead? No. Do I feel the US have violated Pakistan's sovereignity, and Bin Laden's rights as a person? Yes and yes.
Question: if, say, France were convinced terrorists were hiding in Ohio, would you deem it okay for the French government to send drones into the American airspace? Or to extract people from the US without the US's government's formal consent?
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