Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad Pakistan
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@honoluludesktop said:
It appears that you judge us poorly regarding defending ourselves against a enemy that has killed thousands of people in America, then hides in a someone else's country.
Whoa, whoa - you got it backwards. One cannot 'defend' oneself against atrocities that have already happened. You can, obviously, bring the culprit to justice, but the way things are looking at the moment, that wasn't the prime objective. Revenge, and boosting Obama's popularity in all likelyhood were. Do I particulary care Bin Laden is dead? No. Do I feel the US have violated Pakistan's sovereignity, and Bin Laden's rights as a person? Yes and yes.
Question: if, say, France were convinced terrorists were hiding in Ohio, would you deem it okay for the French government to send drones into the American airspace? Or to extract people from the US without the US's government's formal consent?
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And you think that 9/11 was the end of their attacks on America? The French example is just to tickle my ear right. Suggest real events like the French exploding a aerial nuclear weapon in my back yard. The English, and French air attacks in Libya. Stuff like that happens all the time.
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@honoluludesktop said:
And you think that 9/11 was the end of their attacks on America?
I'm inclined to believe Bin Laden's death will make no difference with regards to future terrorist strikes against American targets. Or European ones, for that matter. Don't forget we're in the same boat as you guys are.
Of course, it'll prove interesting to see what the data collected at Osama's hideout will reveal. Had he really become a mere figurehead, or was he still leading al-Qaeda?
And again, I'm not exceptionally sorry the man is dead. I simply feel countries should respect eachother's sovereignity. Except, obviously, when not doing so would result in grave crimes being commited against humanity. Libya is nothing like the botched abduction/execution of Bin Laden.
I think.
@honoluludesktop said:
Suggest real events like the French exploding a aerial nuclear weapon in my back yard.
Hm, I'd forgotten about that. Chilling, criminal, and utterly abhorring.
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Fair points.
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My $.02 FWIW, and it's just opinion...
I'll start off by saying I'm against the US meddling in other nation's business in any way. I've been against the Iraq invasion before it even started, and Afghanistan was somewhat necessary but has gotten out of hand. I am ashamed of the Americans cheering and chanting "USA" in the streets. This is not the Olympics, we didn't get a gold medal. Cheering death is terrible.
That said, there is simply no other way the Bin Laden story could have ended. The only better ending would have been a bomb dropped on his hideout killing him - much less personal and execution-like. Some think OBL should be placed on trial and put in prison. I disagree. As long as the man was held alive he would have become a rallying point for anti-western sentiment. Does one assume that his followers won't threaten to and execute terrorist attacks to pressure us to set him free? How many suicide bombers on trains, subways or aircraft are worth keeping him alive? Is that risk worth it? Not pursuing him to the end leaves a continuing threat and instigator alive (though IMO he was increasingly irrelevant, but I'm no intelligence officer) and a rallying point for terrorists.
Do I think the the invasion of Pakistan to kill him was right? Yes. I'm 100% sure that knowledge of OBL living in Pakistan went very high up in the chain of command, and he received direct assistance from Pakistan. Not across the board, but enough to exist without too many worries from his host.
Was it an execution? Yes. Undoubtedly. He was never going to leave the building alive. Was it revenge? I cannot deny that it is possible; though at this point to me it is an impersonal, distasteful deed. Was it justice? No. Maybe if you're an "eye for an eye" type, but not to me. Too many have died and the water has become too muddy for justice to ever be extracted from this situation. Burial at sea? Fine. No need to create a new Mecca for his followers.
There is NO way there could have been a good ending to this story.
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Jeff beat me to it. I'm pretty sure it was simply an execution...whatever the official line might be. And personally, I couldn't care less.
Of course, criminals ought to be put on trial whenever possible; but I don't think that would have been possible with Bin Laden, as his lunatic followers sought to effect his release by ever more desperate acts.
The acid test would have to be if you were granted the gift of foresight and saw your wife/children/family members slaughtered in yet another pointless terrorist act attempting to put pressure on the International Court...whether you would still be able to put your hand on your heart and say "Yes, that is a price worth paying. Justice must be seen to be done." I know I couldn't. The guy just wasn't worth it.
I agree, attempted terrorists strikes will continue...but they would have been more concentrated and focused in the context of a period of legal proceedings. Bin Laden's human rights are not worth the life of one more innocent bystander. -
@unknownuser said:
At one point I asked the NATO official why he'd thought George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq - as I'd never been able to quite work that one out. After an uneasy silence, he said: "It was personal." I apologize for bringing up Bush again, I really do.)
Gosh, I'm glad you got to the bottom of that mystery. The entire world has been waiting for an 100% credible for exactly why Bush did it. Now, we know it wasn't all that intelligence from the Brits, French, and US intelligence agencies that was the motivating factor. Your NATO general needs a promotion for that one. And, you deserve an emphatic attaboy for your part in finding the smoking gun.
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@david. said:
Gosh, I'm glad you got to the bottom of that mystery.
You're most welcome. Now take that tone and shove it.
Edit: Err, bit brash. Sorry.
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@unknownuser said:
It is Love not Politics which creates order among individuals.
My thought,
So to say. Sorry Honoluludesktop.
Truth!...Your Avatar suits you.
Honolulu,(... and others
) haven't you watched Matrix?
Politics is not what is shown in NEWS. -
and what do you**people** think about this ?
YouTube - Help put this TV Ad on the Air -- Go to RememberBuilding7.org
What if Bin Laden did not do it ?
Why has not it been investigated ?
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Not sure what to do here...
Laugh or cry...I must be psychic, cause I did predict that this thread would evolve with all sorts of conspiracy theories...
Juan... It's hoax... These things have been investigated...
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@juanv.soler said:
What if Bin Laden did not do it ?
Why has not it been investigated ?He's on video, admitting he did it. What's more, he said he was pleasantly surprised the the buildings collapsed. They'd only planned for destruction at the point of impact and the floors above.
It has been investigated; it's just that some people prefer fantasy to fact. It seems to make their lives more interesting.
Tens of thousands of people witnessed two fully fueled jets crash into the buildings...as did countless TV cameras. Not one person noticed mysterious figures carrying tons of semtex and miles of detcord.Just because there are some civil engineering aspects that remain unanswered (because humans are fallible) doesn't mean that Bin Laden was framed, the NSA is the real culprit ...or that we should all go around wearing tinfoil hats to stop 'Them' or little green men from alpha centauri from messing with our minds.
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@alan fraser said:
...doesn't mean that Bin Laden was framed...
...or that we should all go around wearing tinfoil hats to stop 'Them' or little green men from alpha centauri from messing with our minds.
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Frederik, Alan,
thankyou for telling your thoughts on this issue.
Anyone else likes to comment ?
cheers -
@alan fraser said:
Just because there are some civil engineering aspects that remain unanswered (because humans are fallible) doesn't mean that Bin Laden was framed, the NSA is the real culprit ...
I don't buy the conspiracy theories about the US government being behind the 9/11 attacks either. Bush is an evil twit in my opinion, but not this evil. As a president, the man was a school bully with near-infinite resources, not the second coming of Adolf H. Furthermore, 'they' (be it the NSA, or any other agency) could've never kept a ploy of this magnitude covered up.
And what could they've possibly gained?
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Thank you for the links Juan...
@unknownuser said:
...Just because there are some civil engineering aspects that remain unanswered...
Don't you underestimate engineering aspects? That people built it! They are the one to listen, not politicians
Its not "some civil engineering aspects", its nature lows that shows something is wrong. The building can not fall from the hit of an airplane like that. It is impossible. Which opinion do u respect more, an engineer, or the one that came from Bush?@unknownuser said:
...(because humans are fallible) doesn't mean that Bin Laden was framed, the NSA is the real culprit ...or that we should all go around wearing tinfoil hats to stop 'Them' or little green men from alpha centauri from messing with our minds.
That is exactly what "they" want you to think...Why don't they simply give strait answer about the building which was not hit by an airplane? Why? I am not wearing tinfoil hat because I am thinking, and asking questions...as a matter of fact, there is not much to think here, if only you want to...
The whole conspiracy thing was promoted so that thinking people afraid of being laughed off, like you just did...
Why is that video so "VHS" like? in the era of HD mobile phones? Is that regular evidence according to your low?
What about other photographs of him in the role of CIA agent than?
Why didn't they gave him a chance to defend himself?
Why they throw him in the sea?
...IMO there is too much questions here... -
@srx said:
Why didn't they gave him a chance to defend himself?
Simply because capturing Bin Laden would've created a host of problems for Obama. Whatever they did with Bin Laden after he'd been captured, would've backfired. From Obama's perspective, the 'solution' used, was the least likely to cause serious problems.
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srx, why can't a building fall like that? Gravity acts directly downwards doesn't it? The only reason a building would fall sideways would be if it failed somewhere near the base but retained enough integrity on one side to act like a hinge.
The towers very clearly collapsed from the top downwards, pancaking as they went. There was no failure in the lower floors until they got hit by the ones from above.
You're just being condescending. No one would believe anything that came from the Bush camp...but far more engineers are satisfied that the 'official' account is somewhere close to the truth than those few that claim it was all a government conspiracy.Have you even begun to consider the practical implications of preparing building of that size for demolition?. Not just all the explosives I mentioned, but weakening the structure by effectively cutting through the stairwells and lift shafts every few floors, so that they didn't act like the hinge I mentioned. Exactly how do you do that in a WORLD trade center that's operating 24/7 without a single person noticing anything? How do you keep a secret of that magnitude FOREVER? Because it would have to be forever...no deathbed confessions allowed. Presidents are in the job for the power and to get into the history books. No one is going to want to go down as a mass murderer of his own people. Not even Bush.
But most of all...WHY? As an excuse to invade Afghanistan? If the US wants to send forces in anywhere, it just does so...be it Grenada or Somalia. It doesn't need to rip the heart out of one of its financial districts first. You are coming across as being extremely naive.
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@srx said:
Its not "some civil engineering aspects", its nature lows that shows something is wrong.
This isn't true...
New tests have shown that the the way the WTC was demolished is according to physic laws...
Go ahead... Try it yourself...@srx said:
The building can not fall from the hit of an airplane like that. It is impossible.
You're wrong, Saurus...
Others have prooven that the construction would fall apart, exactly like it happened on 911...@srx said:
Why is that video so "VHS" like? in the era of HD mobile phones?
Eehhh... HD mobile phones back in 2001...??
I suggest you check your records...@srx said:
What about other photographs of him in the role of CIA agent than?
I assume that you refer to the Soviet war in Afghanistan in 1979 to 1989...
What you forget is that OBL became extremely upset with the Americans because they didn't fulfill their obligations...@unknownuser said:
This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.
As a fanatic person from the Arab part of the world, he promissed to take an evil revenge...
Please check Wikipedia on OBL...
@srx said:
Why didn't they gave him a chance to defend himself?
There's nothing to defend...
Have you ever seen the 2004 Osama bin Laden video, where OBL abandoned his denials without retracting past statements. In it he stated he had personally directed the nineteen hijackers...
It would have been a charade if the US Gov had captured him and presented him in court...
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The only thing you - IMO - should raise a question about is, that OBL claimed that the Bush administration was warned about the 911 attack...
Not in details, but OBL claimed that US Intelligence had been warned that something "BIG" was going to happen...Please also remember that only one week after the 911 attack, a sick person Bruce Edwards Ivins - was also on a personal vendetta toward the US Gov...
Please read more about the Amerithrax...The New York Post and NBC News letters contained the following note:
@unknownuser said:
09-11-01 THIS IS NEXT TAKE PENACILIN NOW DEATH TO AMERICA DEATH TO ISRAEL ALLAH IS GREAT@unknownuser said:
09-11-01 YOU CAN NOT STOP US. WE HAVE THIS ANTHRAX. YOU DIE NOW. ARE YOU AFRAID? DEATH TO AMERICA. DEATH TO ISRAEL. ALLAH IS GREAT.To begin with, US Intelligence thought al-Qaeda was also responsible for these attacks...
If I was the US Gov, I would have sticked to 'Amerithrax'...
The WTC demolition would be far to complicated to set up...
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