Assisted Suicide/Voluntary Euthanasia
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Hi Guys,
I read both the Pros and Cons to this debate, Assisted Suicide/Voluntary Euthanasia here,
http://www.idebate.org/debatabase/topic_details.php?topicID=55
How do you guys feel about this matter. Until some time ago I was on the fence but after seeing a documentary on the system in Switzerland I formed an opinion. The case followed the last days of an Englishman with a terminal illness that would have rendered him totally incapacitated and extremely uncomfortable over his final days.
The assisted suicide process appeared to me to be a sensitive and dignified exit. The final choice (drinking a fruit flavored concoction) was in the hands of the gentleman in question.
Assisted Suicide will, I think, become a more common place option in Europe over the coming years and possibly something that people should think about.
I agree with making it available. Have we any opinions here?
Mike
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It's an interesting thing, Mike. As you know,my wife works as a hospice nurse here and anyone who gets there is in his/her final state of the illness (mostly people dying in cancer).
Now they of course do not do assisted suicide there (the hospital is run by the Catholic Hospitaller Order of Saint John of God so you can imagine) but they definitely not even "cure" as there is nothing to cure there any more.
Her job is (or would have been at least) to help such people die in dignity or something but she also faces with the fact that it's often (if not moreoften than not) rather impossible.
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There has always been the opportunity for voluntary euthanasia, I believe it is referred to as suicide, at least in English.
I know that isn't quite what you are talking about. I have seen a few different documentaries on this subject. Personally, I don't have an issue with this be it assisted suicide as it has been called in the US (Dr Kevorkian) or euthanasia, for those who are suffering from a malady whose conclusion is clear and may entail extreme hardship.
I know a man who has ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis) and has been in a hospital bed using a ventilator for a decade. His ability to communicate is exceedingly limited but he chose all those years ago to go onto a ventilator knowing that short of an infection he would remain in that state for a long time and would never be able change the moment of his departure. Sadly in the years since, his wife has divorced him, his five children really don't know him (his twins were born after he went onto the ventilator). His deep religious convictions and his desire to see some part of his children's lives drove him to this path which for him is the right way.
Last week the son of a coworker, age 22, chose to end his life, he was a Iraq occupation veteran and was in the midst of getting a degree at a large university. He was physically healthy but apparently there was something within him that was not.
I grew up on a farm, things there are a bit different. When a horse gets old you put them out to pasture, presumably for a long time until they die. A dog you love and keep as best you can, in time they slow no longer doing their job and become a fixture by the wood stove until one day they expire or just disappear. There are things one intends to eat which have a specific date with destiny, some of whom you become the reaper for. Periodically a creature becomes ill well before their expected time, I know city people who intercede with extreme medical care. On a farm it has always been reasonable to 'put them out of their misery', I have to say that more than once I have heard a country person mention that they hope/wish the same could be done for them should the need arise. It may seem a bit cold I suppose but there it is.
I think we all have our limits of what we are willing to endure relative to the value our lives offer us. For the man with ALS his motivations at the time he made his choice have propelled him until now, one may wonder what he wants now. I don't know as I would be able nor want to make the choice he did. My Dad died a few years ago of a rather unpleasant illness, he had to have many transfusions over time to the point where he said he felt like a vampire. Although he died sooner than he expected, I think he eventually intended to check out, stop eating and just go away before he had to leave home and go into hospital for the end.
I think people should be allowed the choice of how they wish to end things in a safe, complete fashion that ensures some other poor soul doesn't have to find the mess we can make of ourselves. I think there need to be clear rules of how it is allowed, how it is done and what your personal involvement is or must be to enact ones end. At the same time I think one also needs to have the choice of riding it to the end, taking all possible measures to get there if that is the way you want to go.
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My mom passed away almost two years ago from stage 4 liver cancer. She was under hospice care for about three weeks before she passed - and I have to say, hospice workers have GOT to be the most compassionate, under-acknowledged examples of what we should ALL aspire to be! These caregivers are the most understanding, loving people on earth!
I can't say which way I'd go, but I think hospice gives a very dignified and loving alternative to suicide (assisted or un-assisted) without prolonged extreme measures to postpone the inevitable.
I agree that this is a sensitive subject, but I appreciate Mike presenting it in such a positive (and non-judgmental) light.
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Ben if you are reading this. Please do not read after this post as it obviously is an upsetting topic for you. Sorry to cause any upset but I believe this is a topic that people should be allow to discuss here.
We are all going to face death at some stage and many of us may be faced with a long drawn out painful death. I just want to discuss the alternatives openly.
Mike
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I think the documentary was a BBC production, at least it was English. I will search to see if its available on the Net. It was very well produced and gave a good insight into how the whole process works. The interviews were very touching and one felt they were a witness to the occasion.
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IMO I lean towards Kmead's posting. I am for assisted suicide/Voluntary euthanasia. Stating the obvious is that it should be an individual's choice, no other party (insurance company, hospital, government, family member, etc...) should ever even be allowed to contribute in any way to the decision other than what passes as conversational advice to the patient and prognosis of all aspects of the future for the individual so that they can make a well informed decision. Otherwise, Soylent Green is people.
If I find or expect to find myself in a long, protracted and completely disabling and/or deadly illness that will suck my family's finances dry (especially here in the US where medical bills easily bankrupt personal finance, over 50% of personal bankruptcies are due to medical issues), destroy them emotionally, or worse yet render me completely devoid of companionship (as in the previously related story), I would see no reason to continue to exist on this planet. Why suffer through the pain and total detachment from reality that the administration of drugs will do? Nobody will give you a medal for doing so. Your family doesn't need to remember you in that state. Allow yourself the dignity to be able to say your goodbyes and designate a point where you can elect to depart, sparing your family the torture of watching you suffer.
As far as thinking you should just commit unassisted suicide, you have to be physically able to do so - and a severe illness might render you incapable of doing so. Plus we've all heard stories and news reports of how badly this can go. It doesn't always work, and you can render yourself in an even worse state than you would have been, plus your family would have to find you the hard way. Also, forcing the individual to go this route removes a lot of the benefits of continuing with palliative and sound medical care.
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Hi Jeff,
You have written a very down to earth response in my eyes.
One question that you raise is the possible financial drain that a longterm terminal illness can have on the individual's own finances or their family's. And yes I know what medical care costs in the USA!
What about this scenario?
Suddenly I am struck down with an illness that puts me into a vegetative state with no hope of recovery only a gradual deterioration.
My family would place me in a care situation which would cost many thousands per month! This situation might last for a couple of years before I die of the illness.
If I had some means to communicate I would ask to be terminated! However I would not have this ability in a vegetative state!
Wouldn't it make sense for me to have some kind of a legal document prepared in advance, resting with my solicitors, advising exactly what my wishes are should this situation arise. In this case they would be to terminate my life as per my wishes / instructions.
I feel the Law should be changed to facilitate this scenario.
Mike
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Suicide is not a crime in Canada,although Assisted Suicide is.
I think the issue here is personal rights versus legislated rights, and I support personal choice in this case.
There are many counties that accept assisted suicide (euthanasia). There is a process involved. The person usually has to be an adult, with a terminal medical condition, who is still considered capable of making that decision.
There should I think also be allowance for a living will, whereby if I have lost my ability to make this decision, my living will states my wishes.
On the other hand, I do not think that under any circumstance, unless it is a matter of removing life support without which an individual cannot survive, someone other than the individual who wishes to die should be allowed to make this decision. -
@mike lucey said:
Wouldn't it make sense for me to have some kind of a legal document prepared in advance, resting with my solicitors, advising exactly what my wishes are should this situation arise. In this case they would be to terminate my life as per my wishes / instructions.
Mike
Yes, this is very important to have. A will, or "living will" (not sure what they are called in other countries, or if they are possible), that states your specific desires in cases like this will provide legal backing and direction for your desires and needs should an awful event happen. Otherwise you get terrible battles between family members, or leave your fate in the hands of some other legal entity that you, or your property, wind up in the care of - like the Terri Schiavo case.
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Thanks Dale. I was not aware of the term 'Living Will'. I have now looked it up here, http://www.alllaw.com/articles/wills_and_trusts/article7.asp
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I don't believe this is a suitable topic for this site, even the corner bar.
It's highly sensitive and I was broadsided by it just looking at new threads.
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Please read my post with an open mind and respect my view on this question. Subjects like these tend to be a bit ticklish ... Thanks.
A preamble: I take my faith in God as a serious aspect of my life. It influences me in many ways, and I take infinite comfort in what God has promised His children and in His Truth. That being said:
Suicide and "assisted suicide" is a sin. And while I'm pragmatic to understand the suffering and other complications of living with a terminally ill person, euthanasia or suicide is still not an option IMO. We see the hurt and anguish of family and friends through eyes accustomed to this world, and not until a person is deceased do we say "Go with God", or "He or she is in a better place". I have been through this with members of my family and it is a hard, hard thing to bear...
God gives us all the opportunity to come to know Him, all through our lives. While some may say, "Why does God allow a person to suffer?", that's not His intent. Up until a persons last breath, they have the opportunity to surrender to God and know His forgiveness and love. In the midst of suffering, we can know Truth and absolute peace. Euthanasia or suicide can deprive a person of accepting God's love before they are ready to accept Him in their heart.
It's a hard path to God's Truth, and pain and suffering is part of it when it's necessary to bring a person to salvation.
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Hi IdahoJ,
I respect your beliefs totally and understand for you Assisted Suicide/Voluntary Euthanasia is a 'sin'. I personally have no belief in this God as he or she is normally portrayed in religious communities although I have formed my own beliefs of a possible higher being thought study of the beliefs and conclusions of people MUCH smarter than me.
I cannot understand how a religion which I do not believe in should dictate by influencing governments how I may or may not end my life.
Mike
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Governments (at least in more fortunate nations), are run by people and listen to the citizens. If the majority, for whatever reason, believe that assisted suicide should not be allowed, then that is what the law will be. The law may have its origins at the root from the majorities religious beliefs, but the law applies to everyone regardless of what they believe in the end. In this case religion is affecting the law, but this is how we choose to let ourselves be governed.
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Out of curiosity... are there any recognised religions that allow assisted suicides?
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Yes Pete, I understand that Jainism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism allows suicide along with other 'Cult' religions. Then again, was not Christianity not regarded as a cult religion in its early stages!
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Being neither religious nor spiritual and having little faith in mankind and even less in the boogeyman I am very curious why religious folks, 'Christians' in this country need the government to impose laws to prevent folks doing things that their doctrine objects to, why not live and let live and those who call themselves Christians refrain from such actions, put your faith where your mouth is and not force it upon us who do not share your obsessions with the supernatural.
Gay marriage is another one where religious folks believe they need a law to prevent same sex couples from having what they believe is an exclusive to Christianity concept and therefore defined by their one and only book. So a law is enacted by government to outlaw decent folks from a legal binding life together because it goes against others beliefs, yet we hear about 'the separation of church and state' but never see it.
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@unknownuser said:
Being neither religious nor spiritual and having little faith in mankind and even less in the boogeyman I am very curious why religious folks, 'Christians' in this country need the government to impose laws to prevent folks doing things that their doctrine objects to, why not live and let live and those who call themselves Christians refrain from such actions, put your faith where your mouth is and not force it upon us who do not share your obsessions with the supernatural.
This is pretty much how most people view the situation. What they don't comprehend, and this is no slight to you personally Solo, is that one can have faith and seek God's Truth without being either "religious" nor a "Christian".
Jesus taught no ecclesiastical doctrines, nor did he teach any theology. His followers were not called "Christians" until much later and that was by others to label them as "followers of Christ", and not part of an "organized (as we know it today) church". The Christ did however have both His 12 chosen apostles, and many followed Him as disciples, believing in His message of the Good News about the Kingdom of God. My wife and I don't attend any particular church, we consider ourselves His disciples and strive to follow the Word of God as put forth in His Scriptures. Anyone who truly understands God's Truth doesn't need to impose their will, beliefs or views, "religious" or not, upon anyone.
But, there will always be those, both secular and "of faith" who feel that they must ...
Cheers.
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Jeff, I totally understand what you are saying and respect you for your convictions, but unfortunately you are a minority, almost considered secular by the majority of folks that call themselves Christians and belong to a group of similar fundamental minded like Baptists, Methodists, catholics, etc.
These groups here in the states are powerful, they can make or break an election, they have lobbyists on capitol hill, they are financially so strong that they can and do steer policy and rule of law.My point, going back to assisted suicides is that they implement a 'man made' law so that they are forced to adhere to it as their faith is not strong enough or conviction not resolute enough to live by the word alone.
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