Assisted Suicide/Voluntary Euthanasia
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Suicide is not a crime in Canada,although Assisted Suicide is.
I think the issue here is personal rights versus legislated rights, and I support personal choice in this case.
There are many counties that accept assisted suicide (euthanasia). There is a process involved. The person usually has to be an adult, with a terminal medical condition, who is still considered capable of making that decision.
There should I think also be allowance for a living will, whereby if I have lost my ability to make this decision, my living will states my wishes.
On the other hand, I do not think that under any circumstance, unless it is a matter of removing life support without which an individual cannot survive, someone other than the individual who wishes to die should be allowed to make this decision. -
@mike lucey said:
Wouldn't it make sense for me to have some kind of a legal document prepared in advance, resting with my solicitors, advising exactly what my wishes are should this situation arise. In this case they would be to terminate my life as per my wishes / instructions.
Mike
Yes, this is very important to have. A will, or "living will" (not sure what they are called in other countries, or if they are possible), that states your specific desires in cases like this will provide legal backing and direction for your desires and needs should an awful event happen. Otherwise you get terrible battles between family members, or leave your fate in the hands of some other legal entity that you, or your property, wind up in the care of - like the Terri Schiavo case.
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Thanks Dale. I was not aware of the term 'Living Will'. I have now looked it up here, http://www.alllaw.com/articles/wills_and_trusts/article7.asp
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I don't believe this is a suitable topic for this site, even the corner bar.
It's highly sensitive and I was broadsided by it just looking at new threads.
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Please read my post with an open mind and respect my view on this question. Subjects like these tend to be a bit ticklish ... Thanks.
A preamble: I take my faith in God as a serious aspect of my life. It influences me in many ways, and I take infinite comfort in what God has promised His children and in His Truth. That being said:
Suicide and "assisted suicide" is a sin. And while I'm pragmatic to understand the suffering and other complications of living with a terminally ill person, euthanasia or suicide is still not an option IMO. We see the hurt and anguish of family and friends through eyes accustomed to this world, and not until a person is deceased do we say "Go with God", or "He or she is in a better place". I have been through this with members of my family and it is a hard, hard thing to bear...
God gives us all the opportunity to come to know Him, all through our lives. While some may say, "Why does God allow a person to suffer?", that's not His intent. Up until a persons last breath, they have the opportunity to surrender to God and know His forgiveness and love. In the midst of suffering, we can know Truth and absolute peace. Euthanasia or suicide can deprive a person of accepting God's love before they are ready to accept Him in their heart.
It's a hard path to God's Truth, and pain and suffering is part of it when it's necessary to bring a person to salvation.
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Hi IdahoJ,
I respect your beliefs totally and understand for you Assisted Suicide/Voluntary Euthanasia is a 'sin'. I personally have no belief in this God as he or she is normally portrayed in religious communities although I have formed my own beliefs of a possible higher being thought study of the beliefs and conclusions of people MUCH smarter than me.
I cannot understand how a religion which I do not believe in should dictate by influencing governments how I may or may not end my life.
Mike
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Governments (at least in more fortunate nations), are run by people and listen to the citizens. If the majority, for whatever reason, believe that assisted suicide should not be allowed, then that is what the law will be. The law may have its origins at the root from the majorities religious beliefs, but the law applies to everyone regardless of what they believe in the end. In this case religion is affecting the law, but this is how we choose to let ourselves be governed.
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Out of curiosity... are there any recognised religions that allow assisted suicides?
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Yes Pete, I understand that Jainism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism allows suicide along with other 'Cult' religions. Then again, was not Christianity not regarded as a cult religion in its early stages!
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Being neither religious nor spiritual and having little faith in mankind and even less in the boogeyman I am very curious why religious folks, 'Christians' in this country need the government to impose laws to prevent folks doing things that their doctrine objects to, why not live and let live and those who call themselves Christians refrain from such actions, put your faith where your mouth is and not force it upon us who do not share your obsessions with the supernatural.
Gay marriage is another one where religious folks believe they need a law to prevent same sex couples from having what they believe is an exclusive to Christianity concept and therefore defined by their one and only book. So a law is enacted by government to outlaw decent folks from a legal binding life together because it goes against others beliefs, yet we hear about 'the separation of church and state' but never see it.
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@unknownuser said:
Being neither religious nor spiritual and having little faith in mankind and even less in the boogeyman I am very curious why religious folks, 'Christians' in this country need the government to impose laws to prevent folks doing things that their doctrine objects to, why not live and let live and those who call themselves Christians refrain from such actions, put your faith where your mouth is and not force it upon us who do not share your obsessions with the supernatural.
This is pretty much how most people view the situation. What they don't comprehend, and this is no slight to you personally Solo, is that one can have faith and seek God's Truth without being either "religious" nor a "Christian".
Jesus taught no ecclesiastical doctrines, nor did he teach any theology. His followers were not called "Christians" until much later and that was by others to label them as "followers of Christ", and not part of an "organized (as we know it today) church". The Christ did however have both His 12 chosen apostles, and many followed Him as disciples, believing in His message of the Good News about the Kingdom of God. My wife and I don't attend any particular church, we consider ourselves His disciples and strive to follow the Word of God as put forth in His Scriptures. Anyone who truly understands God's Truth doesn't need to impose their will, beliefs or views, "religious" or not, upon anyone.
But, there will always be those, both secular and "of faith" who feel that they must ...
Cheers.
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Jeff, I totally understand what you are saying and respect you for your convictions, but unfortunately you are a minority, almost considered secular by the majority of folks that call themselves Christians and belong to a group of similar fundamental minded like Baptists, Methodists, catholics, etc.
These groups here in the states are powerful, they can make or break an election, they have lobbyists on capitol hill, they are financially so strong that they can and do steer policy and rule of law.My point, going back to assisted suicides is that they implement a 'man made' law so that they are forced to adhere to it as their faith is not strong enough or conviction not resolute enough to live by the word alone.
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First things first...
Whether there's a God or not is irrelevant to this discussion...
IF there is, then God gave you 'free-will'.
IF there's not. then you still 'have free-will' - because that's part of being human anyway.
[OR if you don't because we are in some sort of simulation 'Matrix' life then it doesn't matter AT ALL as you can stop right here!]So, let's assume you decide to end your own life...
It's your life - that was either 'given' by God OR 'it just is what it is'.
It's your choice: it's the proper exercising of your free-will either way.
Many might disagree with you... BUT who gave 'them' the overriding power to sit in judgment on you?
You didn't AND neither did God.
If you accept that God gave you free-will, then the exercising of your free-will [without divine intervention] is YOUR choice - otherwise it's not 'free'... Remember that God knew the outcome of granting you this choice [God is after all 'omnipotent' and therefore 'knows everything' - including the result of every decision taken - including this granting of free-will].On the other hand, if there is no God, then ending your life is of little consequence to others - beyond yourself, your family and your friends [assuming you don't jump off a bridge and kill a total stranger in the process!] - I don't encourage this AT ALL... BUT it is YOUR choice - it's your life after all - do with it what you will...
IF there is a God who takes a dim view of you having chosen to exercise the free-will [and kill yourself], remembering that this was 'imposed' on you without your initial involvement, then God should consider that it was the very act of granting of this free-will that culminated in you using it to end your life - AND the outcome was predetermined by the granting of this free-will in the first place [God's choice]. So, you can't give someone a choice that is 'entirely free' and then 'punish them' when they make the choice that you didn't prefer - statistically there will be people who don't agree with you and will make what you perceive to be 'wrong', so 'punishing' them for making either of the very choices that you presented them with is completely perverse, to say the least!!!
So killing yourself is never 'wrong' - it can be unbelievably distressing, or down-right sad or simply inconvenient to others - but then we often do many things with those kind of results... but then these are not considered illegal or or even immoral - just 'wrong' in others eyes - e.g. 'adultery' [at least in the West] is 'wrong' but it has no wider ramifications... beyond your personal life and future finances...
...So let's assume that killing yourself - whilst upsetting for those who know you, or distressing for those tangled up in the messy aftermath if you don't do it neatly - is not 'immoral' or against God's will - and certainly shouldn't be 'illegal', anymore than having some 'personal thoughts' that are against the currently accepted dogmas in many aspects of life...
Now we come to the 'assisted suicide' part...
This is somewhat a different matter: helping someone to kill themselves when they have incontrovertibly expressed their wish to do so, but they are somehow incapacitated from doing it themselves [e.g. a debilitating/wasting disease] with a well considered and documented process [and of course willing participants i.e. both the 'victim' and 'perpetrator'] should be allowed - like any other 'social-transaction' in life.
I know it does get 'murky' when 'somehow the nephew encourages his aged aunt to commit suicide and then happily inherits her mansion' - but then that's NOT 'assisted suicide' - it's something more 'subtle' - psychological manipulation, brainwashing, 'conspiracy to harm' etc, that are quite separate offenses. Helping someone to end their lives when it is clear it's their decision, and would happen if they had had the means without you, is considerably different from 'grooming' someone to kill themselves for your own [perhaps perverted or simply fiduciary] ends.A medical doctor's duty is 'to do no harm' to others: so allowing a patient to die peacefully whilst withdrawing further treatment is already established and quite acceptable. If a patient has made it quite clear to a doctor that in certain circumstances they would no longer wish to continue living then letting them die is therefore correct...
I await the ear-bashing...
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Logical enough argument TIG .... BTW! you didn't happen to inherit any large mansions from rich old aunts by any chance?
Joking aside, I think the religious end of things has to be left out of the debate. It should purely be a civil matter!
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@unknownuser said:
I think the religious end of things has to be left out of the debate. It should purely be a civil matter!
Then there is no point, as the only real objections are from folks that are religious.
Has anyone ever had to put a pet down due to illness or injury?
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@unknownuser said:
I think the religious end of things has to be left out of the debate. It should purely be a civil matter!
If one leaves out the "religious" end of things, then how fair to those of us of faith would the application of the law be? Am I to be discriminated against because of my convictions? Would it be fair to only consider the secular aspects of the problem without due diligence in determining the spiritual aspects? The law is expected to be fairly applied to everyone, regardless of sex, age, faith, etc ...
On the pragmatic side: if a person wishes to end his or her life, that's their business. However, if you allow others to assist, then it sets a dangerous precedent for the future. It's all well and good to have "Living Wills" and the like, or to see that euthanasia is administered under strict control and supervision. But what happens when unscrupulous people start to abuse the law? It'll happen, it always does. Allowing this to become a civil law issue would be a disaster IMO. Civil law is MUCH less strict and uses an entirely different set of rules to determine judgments.
@unknownuser said:
Then there is no point, as the only real objections are from folks that are religious.
As far as there being no point. Well, I believe that really is a faith question. I know personally that there is a point, but it takes faith to see it. I can't convey it any other way that would make sense.
Anyway, nice chatting about this with you guys but I think I'll mosey along...
Cheers.
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Hi Idaho,
I think you make my argument for me in many ways. It should be up to each citizen to follow their own true conscience in these matters. It one wants to abide by their 'faith', that is their choice and right. My 'faith' would allow me to be involved in assisted suicide under certain regulated circumstances.
As far as such a civil law being open to abuse goes, well all civil laws are open to abuse and are broken all the time. That is why we have courts and prisons in place.
The more I think about it the more I feel it must not be a religious matter in any way. In my mind, religious influence has to be removed from State matters in order to be fair to all its citizens. Most of the Western World now has multi belief citizenship. Surely the Law should respect all their believes and the only way I can see this achieved is to take particular religious beliefs out of the equation. Here in Ireland they could start with the Bible when taking an oath in Court and substitute a personal affirmation under pain of penalty. It might have more of an effect.
Mike
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Hi Mike, I guess I just can't resist a good debate ...
@mike lucey said:
I think you make my argument for me in many ways. It should be up to each citizen to follow their own true conscience in these matters. It one wants to abide by their 'faith', that is their choice and right. My 'faith' would allow me to be involved in assisted suicide under certain regulated circumstances.
For an individual to make this choice, I agree. As well, if someone wished to assist, then yes, it's their choice too. As TIG points out, it's an individuals "free will" in both cases. A person of faith would, or should, recognize that for both people, it will be God who judges them ultimately.
@unknownuser said:
As far as such a civil law being open to abuse goes, well all civil laws are open to abuse and are broken all the time. That is why we have courts and prisons in place.
Yes. Absolutely. The penalties for violating civil law are much less severe than criminal. Of course, it's possible for a civil suit to escalate to criminal and therein lies a big issue. Civil law is very different from criminal and I think if there were any disputes about an assisted suicide, it must fall to the penal codes and not the civil code for trial. Civil law is simply not equipped to litigate in situations that are potentially capital crimes, such as murder.
@unknownuser said:
The more I think about it the more I feel it must not be a religious matter in any way. In my mind, religious influence has to be removed from State matters in order to be fair to all its citizens. Most of the Western World now has multi-belief citizenship. Surely the Law should respect all their believes and the only way I can see this achieved is to take particular religious beliefs out of the equation. Here in Ireland they could start with the Bible when taking an oath in Court and substitute a personal affirmation under pain of penalty. It might have more of an effect.
Again, I can't see it. "Religious beliefs" are part of our society and has been for a very long time. Whether we admit it or not, people tend to use "religious filters" to guide them through their everyday life. Just look at the swearing in process for a person's testimony. They place their hand on a Bible and "swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. SO HELP YOU GOD." This implies not only a higher standard of moral conduct, but in a way, a worse punishment from God for what is basically breaking a Commandment: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor". It also provides a "common ground" for accepting testimony as we all, or most of us, accept God's judgment over Man's.
Cheers.
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@mike lucey said:
I cannot understand how a religion which I do not believe in should dictate by influencing governments how I may or may not end my life.
Mike
Best "right to the point" post so far. Couldn't agree more Mike.
And if a person that's in Jainism (that allow assisted suidide) wants to do it, he shouldn't be allowed? Because of christianism (or any other religion) is more "strong", "valid, or "better" than Jainism? this is completly ridiculous... The same argument that's good to defend one side can't be used to defend the other?
In matters like these facts and peoples choices and life should be the only things used to make a valid judgemnt. The minute religion or any "other superior" belief topic enters in scene this discussion stops making sense for me.
You can use that to choose for you, but others have the same right to choose for themselves.
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@idahoj said:
Again, I can't see it. "Religious beliefs" are part of our society and has been for a very long time. Whether we admit it or not, people tend to use "religious filters" to guide them through their everyday life. Just look at the swearing in process for a person's testimony. They place their hand on a Bible and "swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. SO HELP YOU GOD." This implies not only a higher standard of moral conduct, but in a way, a worse punishment from God for what is basically breaking a Commandment: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor". It also provides a "common ground" for accepting testimony as we all, or most of us, accept God's judgment over Man's.
I'm afraid I must disagree. You seem to imply that regardless of belief all of our decision making is directed by religion in some way, and you use the law as an example. The law is secular and applies to everyone regardless of belief, there is no acceptance of any doctrine, no worship necessary for this to be true. Regardless of the history behind the making of the law. The "...so help me God" statement is irrelevant to an atheist and carries weight only with those who believe it to. Implication of a higher standard is also something I must disagree with very strongly, this alludes to the argument that people would be savages without religion to guide society.
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