By value or by reference?

thomthom

When passing arguments from a method to another in Ruby, is that by value or by reference?

Chris Fullmer

I had thought by reference always, unless its a fix_num, which is always a unique value, never a reference.

I juste tested by displaying the object id of a variable passed between different methods, and it keeps the same object id. So it sounds like it passes a reference.

` def m2(a)
puts a.id
end

def m1
a = "hi"
puts a.id
ms(a)
end`

That seems to demonstrate it.

jessejames

@thomthom said:

When passing arguments from a method to another in Ruby, is that by value or by reference?

Oh Lord, this very same question caused a major flame war to arrupt on c.l.python the other day, are you sure you want to ask this question?!?

Chris Fullmer

For the most part, we manage to avoid programming flame wars around here

thomthom

what's there to flame about such a question? people these days
yes - I'm sure I want to ask this - I'm curious.

Dan Rathbun

@chris fullmer said:

I just tested by displaying the object id of a variable passed between different methods, and it keeps the same object id. So it sounds like it passes a reference.
`

def m2(a)
>   puts a.id
> end
> 
> def m1
>   a = "hi"
>   puts a.id
>   m2(a)
> end

`Correction (line 8): "m2(a)" was "ms(a)"

What I think ya'll are misunderstanding (and contrary to what most programming tutorials say,) about Ruby, is that Ruby DOES NOT really have TRUE VARIABLES.

'True variables', I mean in the sense that other languages such as the old BASIC or Pascal had variables, that were declared to 'BE' a certain datatype (int, real, string, etc.) AND kept a table in memory of those (variable) identifiers along with the current VALUE that was 'HELD' by them.

Ruby doesn't do this. EVERYTHING in Ruby is an OBJECT, including objects of the BASE classes (ie: Integer, Float, String, etc.) So when you code:
aVar = 8
in Ruby, you are NOT assigning the integer value 8 to a variable identifier, ... you are instead creating a reference, with the name aVar that POINTS at the first class object 8. The object 8 is an instance of class Integer, and so inherits methods from it's class, and superclasses, ie:
` 8.id

an id number
aVar.id
the same id number since it points at object 8
bVar = aVar
bVar.id
the same id number since it points at object 8`
And as Chris said, Fixnum is special in that there can be ONLY 1 object for each ordinal in the Fixnum set.

The same is not truefor other more complex types, such as Array, String, etc.
The best illustration of "how thinking" of Ruby references as variables (like in other languages,) can lead you to 'hair-pulling' frustration, was given in the forum over at Google Groups. (I answered and solved the poster's problem, but refered in my answer, to his 'reference' as 'an alias'; perhaps not so good as alias is a special kind of reference in Ruby for methods and don't work for "variables".)
Any how.. read that post, and examine flesk's code, and the solution TIG and I gave him (TIG and I are about 5/6 hours apart and posted about the same time, I think.)
Google Groups (Sketchup ruby API): Variable value error

So how would you 'pass by value'? (In the sense that you would in Pascal. You should have an idea, after reading that post.)
Let's modify Chris' code a bit:`

def m2(a)
  puts 'a in m2 has id; '+a.id.to_s
end

def m1
  a = "hi"
  puts 'a in m1 has id; '+a.id.to_s
  m2(a.dup)
end

Or if you wish to paste into the console, then (1 line at a time): def m2(a); puts 'a in m2 has id: '+a.id.to_s; end def m1; a = "hi"; puts 'a in m1 has id: '+a.id.to_s; m2(a.dup); endand then type: m1`
You'll see the id numbers differ.
NOTE: If you think this will save time or memory, it won't. Ruby will create an anonymous reference to the duplicated object, so there is still a 'reference assignment' behind the scenes. In fact if you look up at the modified code, at the 2 puts statements, the String arguments 'a in m1 has id: ' are also transparently assigned an anonymous reference, so I might just as well have stored the string in a named reference of my own, so both methods could use the same String object, but change the method name. Of course it's not necessary, as these objects will not 'live' long.

thomthom

Why do these two things differ: I pass a string to a method and modify the string:

def m3(a); a += 'bar'; end

` > x = 'foo'
foo

m3(x)
foobar
x
foo`

...and the string outside the method is not changed.

But use a Point3d:

def m4(p); p.x = 99; end

` > n = Geom::Point3d.new(1,2,3)
Point3d(1, 2, 3)

m4(n)
99
n
Point3d(99, 2, 3)`

And now it does change...

When I pass Point3d objects to methods that modify the passed argument, I use p2 = p1.clone - but is this the best way to do get a local copy to work on?

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

Why do these two things differ: I pass a string to a method and modify the string:
def m3(a); a += 'bar'; end
(from the Ruby 'Pick-Axe' book):
str + aString -> aNewString
+ Concatenation---Returns a new String containing aString concatenated to str.

@thomthom said:

` > x = 'foo'
foo

m3(x)
foobar
x
foo`
...and the string outside the method is not changed.

Because 'foobar' is the new string object that was transparently constructed with String.new by Ruby.

thomthom

Ok, but what about this one?

` > x = 'foo'
foo

def m3(a); a = 'bar'; end
nil
m3(x)
bar
x
foo`

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

a += 'bar'

Just a quick note about += for String objects.

(We also discussed this in another thread.) %(#4040BF)[EDIT ( got confused for a min; removed previous statement.)]
My advice is, for less confusion, use the proper String append operator: (It's the same work for typing!)
a << 'bar'

ADD: IMHO, the interpreter should raise a SyntaxError when it sees += for Strings. I wonder if a Warning is output?
UPDATE: No, I tested += with $VERBOSE set to true, and no warning is output.

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

Ok, but what about this one?
` > x = 'foo'
foo

def m3(a); a = 'bar'; end
nil
m3(x)
bar
x
foo`

..the above, is the same as:
@thomthom said:

` def m3(a); a += 'bar'; end

x = 'foo'
foo
m3(x)
foobar
x
foo`
.. with respect to that:

(1) the reference a, is at method start, pointing at the same string object 'foo' that the reference x is pointing at; ..and

(2) then the expression on the right of the '=', in both cases, results in the creation of a new string object by Ruby.
..(a) In case 1, Ruby calls String.new('bar') (we'll call it: newbarstr.)
..(b) In case 2, Ruby first expands a += 'bar', into a = a + 'bar', then (as in case 1,) evaluates the right-hand expression, transparently passing literal string args to String.new, keeping track of the anonymous pointers to the new string objects. In this example there is only one (we'll call it newbarstr.) Then, it calls a.+(newbarstr) which is the string concatenation method, that returns yet another new string object created by Ruby (we'll call it foobarstr, but remember Ruby uses temporary numerical identifiers.) So at this point the right-hand expression is now done and set to temp string object foobarstr.

(3) NOW.. both cases make a REFERENCE assignment, which assigns the reference a to point at the new String objects created from their evaluations.

(4) Lacking any specific return expression, the method returns the last result, which is the value of the object that a was made to point at, which is NOT the object 'foo'.

(5) Since the method call was made "stand-alone" and it's result not referenced, when the method exits, a will disposed of by Garbage Collection, along with any temporary objects Ruby used within the method.

(6) .. all that's left, is reference x pointing at poor 'lil string object 'foo'.

+= vs. <<
Looking back at (2)(b) above, and realizing all the work that is going on, and string objects being created, just to glue two substrings together.. we should all want to use << (the String append method,) instead.
The main reason is, that it only creates one temporary string, IF the argument is a literal; otherwise NO temporary string, IF the argument is a reference to an existing string object.
String.<< instead directly modifies the receiver string object by appending the string argument object onto it.

Bottom line: Free Your Ruby Mind !!
Throw away the word 'variable' and think 'reference'.
$reference, global_reference, local_reference, instance_reference, @reference, class_reference, @@reference, module_reference ... reference, Reference, REFERENCE !

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

Why do[es] ... Point3d [differ?]

def m4(p); p.x = 99; end

` > n = Geom::Point3d.new(1,2,3)
Point3d(1, 2, 3)

m4(n)
99
n
Point3d(99, 2, 3)`
And now it does change...

Apples and Oranges.

In this case, your calling a 'method operator' ie: Geom::Point3d.x= that happens to have a '=' character in the method name. It's not the same as the Ruby hard-coded = operator.

Your getting confused because the interpreter allows you to insert a space into the method call.

Also.. Geom::Point3d.x= is more similar to String.<<, in that the method doesn't replace an entire object, it only modifies part of the object.
Specifically, Geom::Point3d.x= is an attribute setter method, involving Numerics, so no temporary Integer, and p is still pointing at the same object n is, so naturally, yes the common object gets modified.

Since Geom::Point3d has no dup method, you'll have to use clone to create a copy.

thomthom

@dan rathbun said:

In this case, your calling a 'method operator' ie: Geom::Point3d.x= that happens to have a '=' character in the method name. It's not the same as the Ruby hard-coded = operator.

Your getting confused because the interpreter allows you to insert a space into the method call.

Ahah! This is the core of my confusion indeed!

.x= (which can be written .x =) is really just a Ruby naming conversion for .set_x.

Thanks for this explanation Dan. Appreciate it.

So using p2 = p1.clone is the proper way to get a copy of a point then?

tbd

see also The Ruby programming language By David Flanagan, Yukihiro Matsumoto

thomthom

@unknownuser said:

see also The Ruby programming language By David Flanagan, Yukihiro Matsumoto

Interesting link. I think I need to read further into that book.
Did remind me of another thing about Ruby - true/ false, why they don't equal to 1 and 0. I've burned myself a couple of times on that one.

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

So using p2 = p1.clone is the proper way to get a copy of a point then?

Only way if you keep it a Point3d. If you convert to Array, then you have the real 'proper' .dupand .clonethat are inherited correctly from Object.

The Geom::Point3ddid inherit .dupbut it does not work, it returns nil.
And Google overrode the standard .clone, and the new one does not pass on taintedness and frozen state correctly.

thomthom

Well, if .to_a is faster than cloning a Point3d then I can live with that. I just need to grab a copy of some x,y,z co-ordinates and modify its values - as fast as possible.

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

Well, if .to_a is faster ...

.to_a is 1 less char to type than .clone

.. and itwillcreate a new Array object, and since the GSUT extended the Array class with .x, .y, .z etc, it's same same...

thomthom

Only preview of the book - not the whole thing. I just placed an order for it. I don't like reading books on screen. Hurts my eyes.

Dan Rathbun

@thomthom said:

@unknownuser said:

see also The Ruby programming language By David Flanagan, Yukihiro Matsumoto

Interesting link. I think I need to read further into that book.

No Kidding! Yukihiro Matsumoto is "Matz" the inventor of Ruby!

I didn't know Google Books had this.