Why not use plugins?
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I had a theory as regards ACAD
90% of users used it "out of the box"
90% of the remaining 10% used bespoke keyboard short cuts and scripts they got from others
It was the remaining 1% that actually created the short cuts and scripts.Why should SketchUp be any different
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personally i cant see any good reason for not using plugins. Sure there are a few minor things that might be cause for concern, but when i weigh them up against the amount of time i save using plugins it is incomparable in the extreme.
David, i find your position a little strange. You would willingly invest lots of time redoing whats already been done when checkable ruby exists (in 95% of rubies at least.) Compare that to running binary files on your machine: you have practically zero control over what they actually do and no way of finding out (except in the rare case of an open source program, although this would still likely involve intense scrutiny of a lot of code which could take a long time.) Seems like a contradiction to me.
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Looking at the development of WordPress would be a great reference tool for establishing similar development of Sketchup plugins. Google seems hesitant, or perhaps outright against the notion of hosting and managing a SU ruby script store. Frankly, we don't need Google for that. Sure, Ruby is capable of doing a lot of nasty things to a computer; WordPress uses JavaScript and PHP and MySQL and trust me, entire web servers can be brought down with the right code inserted into a WordPress-powered site. How is that different that the thousands of extensions available for Mozilla's Firefox browser? or for their email app, Thunderbird? Maybe Apple can protect most iPhone and iPod Touch users, but not for those devices that have been cracked open with jail-breaking software.
My point with all of this is that an effective, safe, and dynamic scripting community can be built for Sketchup. Will there be risks? Yes, but as others have said, coders here have reputations and trust with members. That is the starting point for anyone. If a person is serious about developing for SU, then they know that they must build real trust with the community.
A plugin repository, managed for and by users, is the only way to go. People will look at the code, and they can ask questions. Experienced users can point out obvious issues, and even perhaps outright hostile code. WordPress had all of these issues -- and discussions -- early on, and it was decided that it was going to be up to the community to police itself. Really, isn't that the best way? Now WordPress probably has THOUSANDS of plugins, and they range from very professional, well-coded to the first time unoptimized code of beginners. The cream makes it way to the top, to the point where many of these plugin developers create business opportunities for themselves.
We, as a user base, can't dictate or control where Sketchup goes as an application. However, as a strong, united, viable and active community, we would carry a lot of influence into the future of the program. While WordPress, the core program, is open-source, it is still under tight control, almost, but not quite like Google has total control over Sketchup. However, the developers over there at WordPress.org work to create a better API all the time, offering the theme and plugin communities more and more tools to access and use. All of them benefit, and most especially, the average WordPress user benefits, without knowing a single line of code.
I don't dismiss people's concerns about potential issues that can be created by bad or illicit code, but from my own experience, those concerns can, and do, get addressed all the time. The bad guys try something new, and the community rushes in to fix the problem. It's always there, but by far, the vast majority of plugins do nothing but help people build better web sites and web experiences.
By the way, I'm not a WordPress dot Com employee or anything, and I'm not even a coder. I'm just a bit of an evangelist for a program that I have seen grow from a baby into a grown-up. It gets better all the time, and a LOT of people are enjoying the benefits.
Sketchucation is already a great community. I've only been here a short while and I see a lot of parallels to my WordPress experience. You all know that on the internet, one thing you have of value is your name, and therefore your reputation. Building a formal plugin community would leverage that, and, as I hopefully have shown with this far-too-long-post, is something that is not only possible, but desirable.
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@chris fullmer said:
So, why don't people use plugins? Do they just not realize how useful they can be?
For people who do use them, how did you start?
When I started SU, I didn't understand what a plugin was. I figured if it wasn't included in the program from the developer, I didn't need it. Further, I didn't want to mess with the program files and break something.
That changed when I discovered Weld, and how easy it is to install them. Now, I just try to keep up with all the new plugins so I know whats available, but I don't install one unless I have a specific need for it. I don't like the clutter from too many plugins.
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I started to use plugins fairly early - not too much after I finally read the SU Guide (you know the feeling as to "RTFM") and discovered the Ruby section of the old @Last forums then Smustard and the Ruby Library Depot. Then I tried almost every plugin whose description interested me and surely my menus soon started to be cluttered so nowadays I also just use the ones I really need but of course, that's the point in these plugins.
@aerilius said:
As plugins are at the user's own risk, users would have to agree to the terms of use before installing a possible "SCF ruby store and auto-update"-plugin.
I'm not shure about "the user's own risk" and "agree to terms of use".
Would this be enough? SCF is no person and can not withstand a court case.Well, we already have the Extensions index although it is a bit abandoned project at the time and its core also needs some revamping.
And for a while, SketchUcation is functioning as a "company" (registered in Ireland in Spring or Summer last year) so we could indeed take legal responsibility (although I am not sure if I wished to do that) -
@chris fullmer said:
... Ruby can delete all the contents of your hard drive, install virus, etc. Google has said they can't be responsible for that ...
Many thanks for pointing this out! I think this should be a real discussion here and not only something like "where do you go if you do not dare to install any software on your pc".
Security is really important if it's connected with responsibilities. We know that browsers have often security leaks, although it is really hard to write a dangerous website with pure javascript: If you don't know the leaks, you can not do things outside the browser because there is no "vocabulary" for that. Websites are like in a sandbox compared to other applications.
That is where Sketchup is different. It's not a sandbox. I don't know much about ruby, but I know exporters that can create files anywhere on the hard drive where you choose it.
So if Google cannot take the risk for an App Store (review would be more complex than for models, they even don't allow yet rich content in model descriptions), SCF will certainly not.Downloading plugins is at one's own risk. But most likely plugins from well known forums might be secure.
[Edit]
A direct access to plugins from within Sketchup would nevertheless be fascinating. Technically, it should be feasible, something similar to the 3d-warehouse access in Sketchup. We as a forum of 26000 users have experiences with the plugins on SCF and know quite sure which are definately reliable. As plugins are at the user's own risk, users would have to agree to the terms of use before installing a possible "SCF ruby store and auto-update"-plugin.
I'm not sure about "the user's own risk" and "agree to terms of use". Would this be enough? SCF is no person and can not withstand a court case. -
@unknownuser said:
@tfdesign said:
it's just a case of knowing the 'tricks of the trade'
you're right, all the stuff possible with rubies are possible with native SU tools (though i really wouldn't consider attempting an SDS operation manually). a decent understanding of geometry can get you pretty far in this game but still, what you rather do in this situation:
ya dig?
Yes. Point taken. I dig!
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Hi,
I use the plugins sparingly. When I start a project, I do this first with the SketchUp tools.
If i run on a specific problem in a project, I think about what plugin could help me to simplify the work flow or to solve a specific problem.
I have a lot of interesting plugins. In the majority of plugins, I was made aware of the Forum.
Usually I am not in a position to plan in advance what plugin could be used for what purpose.
The problem is that one does often not remember which plugin is for what purpose,
since we do not use these plugins every day. Many of us will surely have the same problem.
Sometimes I experiment with different plugins to find out for what purpose I could use it.
Plugins I use frequently are:
• Shape Bender
• Follow me and Keep
• Copy along path
• Round corner and Bevel edges and Corners
• Curve Maker, Taper Maker
• Weld
• Draw helix
The function of these plugins, I have some in my head and know what you can do with it.
The biggest problem is that there are too many plugins. Everyone will surely have a few plugins it knows and uses for specific tasks.
And then you see a tutorial in the forum and you think that is a must have. Then wakes again the collecting fever.
Karlheinz
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With all of the excellent, insightful comments already posted, I don't know what I could add, but my guess on Why many do not use Plugins would be:
1.Caution against installing some dangerous process.
2.Stubborn-ness.
3.Fear, superstition.
4.Purism.
5.Inexperience with plugins, generally.
I remember as a new user, on discovering Didier Bur's site, looking at the very brief descriptions of the various scripts did not seem sufficient. And, I felt like there was not enough time to explore and experiment with each one. So, there was a reluctance there, and with the limited description, I could not tell whether some of the "more exotic" scripts could be used for general purposes or for a very narrow scope of operations. That caused a concern that loading a whole pile of scripts could somehow bog down the program. And, the fact that my home machine is becoming more obsolete by the day. -
@unknownuser said:
The problem is that one does often not remember which plugin is for what purpose
About use of plug
Just know what do you want specifically to made : an helix?
Just ask here "does this plug exist"* ?
There will be always someone to give the answer
A Forum is made also for that
About risk and security
Seems you risk more with falling your latop on the floor or spilling some water (cafe) on it- you can also use the search engine of the forum first
- you can also use the search engine of the forum first
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@mitcorb said:
With all of the excellent, insightful comments already posted, I don't know what I could add, but my guess on Why many do not use Plugins would be:
1.Caution against installing some dangerous process.
2.Stubborn-ness.
3.Fear, superstition.
4.Purism.
5.Inexperience with plugins, generally.In other words, at least on an individual level, it is all about the way people think and perceive - after all, a fierce debate on the forum is still going on about whether or not children should be vaccinated, about being free to choose and so on - something that many of us would accept as common knowledge, without necessity even to discuss it.
As a casual modeler, I might never need many of them, but even those I use at the moment ( Weld, Shape Bender, RoundEdges, SDS, etc ) provide invaluable assistance in my work. -
Will work (native SU)
Works faster (plugin)
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About Google not wanting to have a SketchUp App Store because of security concerns, I still think it's just an excuse:
http://www.android.com/market/
If they have a store for both paid and free Andriod apps, they of course have the know-how to do it for SketchUp. The day they decide to do it, they'll do it. Yes, they can.
And the excuse of not wanting to be responsible for what rubies can do, they solved that for the Android store by including several disclaimers in the TOS, like everybody else does:
@unknownuser said:
You agree that Google is not responsible for any Product on the Market that originates from a source other than Google.
@unknownuser said:
...YOUR USE OF THE MARKET AND ANY PRODUCTS DOWNLOADED OR OTHERWISE OBTAINED THROUGH THE USE OF THE MARKET IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK...
@unknownuser said:
...YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE TO YOUR COMPUTER SYSTEM...
@unknownuser said:
...GOOGLE FURTHER EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES...
@unknownuser said:
...GOOGLE AND ITS SUBSIDIARIES AND AFFILIATES SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU UNDER ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY...INCLUDING ANY LOSS OF DATA...
http://www.google.com/mobile/android/market-tos.html
So you see, they can create an app store. Actually, they have already created an app store, but for another platform. And of course, they covered themselves from any potential problems by just writing a long legal copy with several disclaimers.
As Fletch would say, Keep wishing... You never know when it'll be granted.
And I wish there was a centralized, up-to date, easily searchable place to get SketchUp rubies, with ratings by users, and which would be promoted from within SketchUp itself.
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Well said Pete
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I started using plugins right from the start. At first I used to check the Ruby forum on a daily basis to make sure I didn't miss anything, but it's simply getting too hard to keep up now. I actually don't use that many on a regular basis...maybe a dozen or so. I think that's mostly because I've got too many loaded and can't see the wood for the trees. I'm still using the old Menus.rb that came with a ton of the original scripts....most of which I never use. I think I'll really have to make time over Christmas to sit down and have a good clear out; maybe use organizer instead, so I can keep track of what I've actually got loaded.
The ones I find most useful are those directly connected with mesh editing. I use most of Chris's, Fredo's, a few of Todd and Rick's and one or two by TIG. The ones I do use are absolute life-savers.It doesn't surprise me at all that most SU users don't use Rubies. We've found this in idependent research at FormFonts. Although the usage of SU by architects is second only to ACAD, well over 90% of them appear to be using the plain vanilla version...quite often a couple of releases back, due to inertia on either their part or that of the IT department....with no enhancements whatsoever...not even components...just the sampler that comes with the program or those obtained by the linkage to the 3D Warehouse. They've never even heard of Sketchucation...much less Smustard or Didier's site.
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@thomthom said:
@david. said:
Personally, I don't use 3rd party plugins. If I need something not built-in, then I'll write the plugin myself. IMO, installing 3rd party plugins is a security issue that is ignored by most (as far as I know). I'm not willing to take the chance on that possibility, even though it may be small.
How do you decide on what applications you install on your computer?
I purchase them from reputable companies. Corporate disclaimers aside, I feel reputable companies have a vested interest in making sure the software they sell is safe. And, there is the issue of bugs. No software is perfect, so some bugs will result in security risks. Knowing that, I will take a certain level of risk. I don't download unknown, untrusted applications from someone I don't know and who may live half way around the world. Even then, I always scan everything I install/download. Since Ruby scripts can be scrambled, I can't review them easily prior to running them.
@remus said:
David, i find your position a little strange. You would willingly invest lots of time redoing whats already been done when checkable ruby exists (in 95% of rubies at least.) Compare that to running binary files on your machine: you have practically zero control over what they actually do and no way of finding out (except in the rare case of an open source program, although this would still likely involve intense scrutiny of a lot of code which could take a long time.) Seems like a contradiction to me.
See above. I find it a bit strange that someone would install a script without having a high degree of confidence that it isn't malicious. I'm not saying that most scripts are malicious or the developers are malicious. I'm saying that it is not worth my effort to do that research. I also happen to enjoy writing my own scripts. That is worth my effort. No contradiction at all.
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@alan fraser said:
Although the usage of SU by architects is second only to ACAD, well over 90% of them appear to be using the plain vanilla version...quite often a couple of releases back, due to inertia on either their part or that of the IT department....with no enhancements whatsoever...not even components...just the sampler that comes with the program or those obtained by the linkage to the 3D Warehouse. They've never even heard of Sketchucation...much less Smustard or Didier's site.
This is a very true, very well perceived observation. In fact the architect who I work for still does all his drawings by hand! I have to transfer these drawings into QCad (I don't have the budget for ACAD- not even LT, and he doesn't have the time to learn CAD), then into SketchUp (I will be buying Pro very soon). The only reason I have played with rubies is because I'm a freelancer. The rest of the department (which is part of a college) is connected via the IT department, who still use XP. My colleague who sits opposite me, uses Creative Suite 3 still, because IT can't afford to upgrade due to a very tight (and largely non-existent) budget.
Personally I think Google should licence all the best stuff (like Autodesk used to) and integrate it into SketchUp, rather than people having to seek these plugins out.
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@david. said:
I feel reputable companies have a vested interest in making sure the software they sell is safe. And, there is the issue of bugs. No software is perfect, so some bugs will result in security risks.
Safe? Security risks?? I know that the American military were once hacked into because they were running Windows, but don't you think this level of thinking is just a touch on the side of the paranoid?
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tfdesign, "just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you"
If I don't use SketchUp for a little while I start forgetting shortcuts, workflows etc. But because of its simplicity it extremely easy to get back into it again. Using many plugins takes this away. I have many rubies installed but use regularly only a dozen maybe.
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@solo said:
Stay away from the 'free-porn.rb'
Lol
Personally, I don't know what I'd do withiut plugins. I am used to automations, coming from ArchiCAD, and all of the plugins I use ease the workflow while making design. I love, in this matter, the delete coplanar edges plugin, I just looooooove it.
As you may know, I am italian, and as far as I know one of the few who has an updated blog in Sketchup in Italian. Here in Italy SU is used only to Sketch (when it is used at all), only because plugins are all in english and people will not bother to investigate more.
What I try to do in my blog, is to tell people that there is a very easy way to do things. But it seems people won't listen to me
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