2012

jeff hammond

Jeff,
All entities as angel, devil, archangel, cherub, seraphim, they were direct created by God, and they cannot procreate. They aren’t gods, even sometimes they are named as “sons of God”. All of them have different restrictions – they are limited.

Cornel

so god created absolutely everything.
he created evil but then says don't go near it or you will be punished and burn for all eternity.
creates the desire for a man to love a man but it's one of the worst things to christians. etcetc...

for someone that can design something as functional as the human hand, he sure screwed up with some of the simpler things.. ie - evil is a no-no so why create it in the first place? crime, war, greed, homosexuality, racism, all that ish.. why make it in the first place??

i really don't get the logic at all [really]

Stinkie

@alan fraser said:

Yeah! Gimme that old time religion.

lol! Oh, you'd like that, wouldn't you?

tomasz

@unknownuser said:

so god created absolutely everything.
he created evil ...

i really don't get the logic at all [really]

The logic is in a free will of all creation, including those who suggested that Our Father has something to hide from us. That he doesn't share all knowledge that he has. I am talking here about the 'father of a lie'.

We are free Jeff. We can do whatever we want, good and evil. It is hard to recognise what is good and what is evil only with reasoning. We can discover and learn that our hearts can distinguish it far more easily than our minds. 'Do not judge' relates to a usage of a pure reasoning when looking at someone else. One can harm a person a lot with a false accusation. Heart can reach deeper and see what the reason can not recognise.

It is you and me who decide what we bring to the World.

Alan Fraser

The concept of an omniscient God makes no sense. If you know everything, then paradoxically you can’t know everything.
For instance, if you are ex-temporal and can see the future then you can’t know what surprise or disappointment are…or hope, or fear…or anything else that depends on not knowing what’s going to happen next. So you are not omniscient.

If you think about it, these are pretty much all the qualities that define us as human beings....other than love. Playing devil's advocate, some might argue that it's a bit rich being judged on being human by some entity that has no idea what it's like to be human.

If, on the other hand, you don't exist outside of time and space and don’t know what the future holds…then, again, you’re not omniscient.

tomasz

@alan fraser said:

The concept of an omniscient God makes no sense. If you know everything, then paradoxically you can’t know everything.

I understand your point. What if omniscient God has created us in his image and decided to become one among us. Then he would know fear, hope and other limitations.

Let assume you create a robot with perfect artificial intelligence, being really a copy of you. Your partner in business is very jealous that it was your idea and your workmanship. You told him that you want to be 'transfered' into a robot. He is so jealous that he decides to screw the robot a little, before you manage to become ONE with the machine. He achieves his goal. You know what he has done, but there are thousands of robots already sold and you know, as an author, that the damage done is not that crucial. You know that you, while being a robot, you can teach others how to overcome the limitations.

Just a story.

I have had different question. If God knew everything, why did he not bypassed all that mess we have to face? Why not crush evil in the beginning? My answer was he could not, because of the free will. The God will achieve the kingdom of love for all his creation that will learn, that to love is an essence of being good, a foundation of a 'heaven'.

Alan Fraser

This looks like it will be an interesting read for all those tying themselves in knots, trying to reconcile modern science with theology.
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/dice.html

cornel

Tomasz wrote:
"Let assume you create a robot with perfect artificial intelligence, being really a copy of you"

Does that robot have soul and spirit?

Tomasz wrote:
"The God will achieve the kingdom of love for all his creation that will learn, that to love is an essence of being good, a foundation of a 'heaven'."

Only love?! How about justice and fairness, holiness, etc.

Cornel

cornel

Jeff,
“God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good…” (Genesis 1:31)

Re. your conclusion: “so god created absolutely everything; he created evil…”
Evil wasn’t create. Evil is a resultant of anti-God position.
For example a rebelious angel is a demon. Demons weren’t created.
Actual man is different than initial Adam – human ‘components’ were changed!

At the time of creation, God knew about future alteration and provided (at the beginning) the way of ‘restoration’.
God is omniscient, Alan, not only a concept!
In the Bible, there are explained all those things, but, who is studying seriously?!

I saw in above comments that it’s not clear (for many guys) what does it mean this aspect:
“God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us.”
“Our image” has different meaning than “like us”, and “like us” doesn’t mean to be identical w/ God !
Friends, do not confuse materials w/ spirituals (and vice versa) and priorities!

Cornel

cornel

Modelhead wrote:
“I'm no longer influenced by a god and it seems that goodness has surrounded me.”

Are you shure?!
Whithout God, good/goodness is very relative, and cannot be defined, because we have no a true reference, a perfect standard…

Theoreticaly , whithout God, we can just realise that things exist or not …, but not if they are good or bad.
Practically, we can distinguish if they are good or bad, because God created us ‘in His image, to be like Him’, and our conscience directs us, using our remaining ‘memory’ regarding God’s moral precepts.

Modelhead wrote: “Our time on earth runs out”

… and, after that?!?

Cornel

solo

@unknownuser said:

Theoretically , without God, we can just realise that things exist or not …, but not if they are good or bad.

That's it isn't it? Religion polarizes everything into good verses evil, however it uses it's own definition of evil based on...well exactly what does it base it on? I can think of many evil christian empires of the past, some evil christian supremacist's of today, evil profit based christian organisation, in fact I see more hate, evil and destruction in religion than anywhere else.

Stinkie

@unknownuser said:

Whithout God, good/goodness is very relative

Of course it is, as it measured by man-made, society-dependant standards.

@unknownuser said:

and cannot be defined, because we have no a true reference, a perfect standard…

Not so fast, Cornel. 'Relative' and 'undefinable' are not interchangeable concepts.

@unknownuser said:

Practically, we can distinguish if they are good or bad, because God created us ‘in His image, to be like Him’, and our conscience directs us, using our remaining ‘memory’ regarding God’s moral precepts.

If there indeed a God, He is without morals, as He has no peers.

@unknownuser said:

… and, after that?!?

Either fire or worms.

solo

@unknownuser said:

… and, after that?!?

That's the crux of religion right?, the afterlife, eternity of bliss, reward for being a diligent follower.

Just for a second imagine there was no afterlife, we are here until we expire and decompose, the cycle of life.
Would that not help you to make every second count? and life without the fear of eternal damnation? Maybe immortality is based on your contributions to our evolutionary world by your actions, people like Einstein, Newton, Hitler, Jesus, Shakespear, Ghengis Khan, Pythagoras, Plato, etc, etc will live on forever based on their life achievements, good or bad.

solo

Just a side note:

Atheism is the fasted growing belief in the world at the moment, we are becoming immune to the superstitious crap that religion spews out, science and technology are our gods now.

Alan Fraser

@unknownuser said:

… and, after that?!?

That’s the mistake that most people make; there isn’t any ‘after’ as such.

If you are an atheist, there just isn’t any afterlife.
If you believe there is something after death, then it’s not of this material universe…so it’s outside of space-time…so it can’t possibly continue in the same linear, temporal kind of way.
Even if you are religious, you need to rid yourself of the notion that Heaven is somewhere just hidden away from our sight; maybe without gravity and all the cares of this world, but otherwise somewhat similar, where people are still recognisably people and there is still a past, present and future. If it does exist it is absolutely nothing like what we experience now…not even to there being something as basic as the present moment that is forever becoming ‘ a moment ago’..
I actually think there is something after; but even I think that the rather radical description above will prove to fall far short of the reality. I certainly don't expect to find cherubim and seraphim. Isaiah might have been a sincere man, but frankly he was hallucinating...not exactly unknown in the overly-devout. Why would they need six wings? Is there an atmosphere in Heaven? So it’s material, not spiritual?

It's a demonstrable fact that every second there has ever been still exists…it just doesn’t exist here and now. We see the sun as it was nearly 9 minutes ago. When we look at distant galaxies, we see them as they were billions of years ago. It follows that every second of your life is still being enacted somewhere…for ever. All the more reason to make the most of it, live it as well as you can and stop worrying unduly about what comes next.

cornel

Alan,
Apostles John and Paul, they were visited the Heaven...
Jesus Christ was and He is in the Heaven...

For us, there are no proper words to describe the Heaven...
Isaiah did not hallucinate!

cornel

Pete, wrote:
“…evil profit based christian organisation, in fact I see more hate, evil and destruction in religion than anywhere else.”

I believe in God’s Word – the Bible. I’m not member of any kind of religious organization - I’m not an exponent of others.
To be christian, means to live like Jesus Christ…
“What was wrong in Jesus life?”, was my question on page 10, but no answers…

On page 10 olso, I mentioned about divers diversionist organizations auto-intituled christians, that are/were acting, producing crimes, disorder, confussion, etc.
On page 5 I presented a several examples (from the Bible) of what true religion means, but no comments…

Now, because you, Pete, are doing a compound of such discrepant things, it suggested me that you are into turmoil…
For your knowledge, there are three kind of christians:

by name (so called christian);
“natural” cristian;
“spiritual” christian.
Do you know differences in-between this three categories?

cornel

Stinkie wrote:
“Not so fast, Cornel. 'Relative' and 'undefinable' are not interchangeable concepts.”
They are, because your relative moral precepts can be defined for a club, not to be valuable for all mankind, as the Bible is.

Stinkie, you affirmed that finally a human being will be “either fire or worms”.
Is the human spirit included in those presuppose ‘shapes’?!

Cornel

solo

A name christian is what 75% American consider themselves, that's live a normal (sinfull) life, go to church every now and again (read funerals and weddings) and look down at other religions.
A natural christian is best summed up with words like obsession, a very restrictive lifestyle, devoid of true expression unless it's in praise or honor of your supreme leader, best explained here: Eph 5:15-17
A Spiritual christian is one that breaks loose from the shackles of tradition/religion and lives a spiritual life, Kinda like early Native Americans, lost Amazonian tribes, etc, with the exception they do not pay homage to the sun, clouds, mountains, rivers or animals but to Jesus.

And you asked: “What was wrong in Jesus life?”

Nothing, but can you kindly keep it to yourself? I'm not interested it that life, so no need to feel the need to save me, I'm perfectly safe.

Stinkie

@unknownuser said:

Stinkie wrote:
“Not so fast, Cornel. 'Relative' and 'undefinable' are not interchangeable concepts.”
They are, because your relative moral precepts can be defined for a club, not to be valuable for all mankind, as the Bible is.

Errrr ... I think you're getting a tad caught up in your own newspeak here.

@unknownuser said:

Stinkie, you affirmed that finally a human being will be “either fire or worms”.
Is the human spirit included in those presuppose ‘shapes’?!

I meant that the 'afterlife' will consist of either burial or cremation. The best you can hope for, is that parts of you will be recycled to help out others. As for 'the spirit' - now there's a concept that makes me think of really large, unisex training pants. One can fit anything in there.

Alan, could you elaborate a bit further on your concept of afterlife? No - not poking fun at you. I'm quite serious.

Clarencecat

I agree with you Solo
there's enough judging of people by other people, without being judged by an omnipitant power - & should there be such a thing, what a poor view these religious people have of their god that they think it so malevolent.
They cant have it all ways - either it created everything, including our thoughts, or it's just using ius for it's own amusement.
We might as well worship a paper bag - or the sun (which very popular once!)

When i was at school, although not a religiuos school, it was instilled in everone to worship god. As i got older i realised it was a myth, but for quite a long time i was secretly afraid to deny a god, it was that deeply ingrained - we are so fragile in our formative years.

We don't need religion or the threat of retribution to lead good lives - i'ts a natural thing to treat others well, simply because it's what works for everyone.
We are not in the stone age, we all know right from wrong.

This is not say i'm not spiritual - we are all made of the same stuff, the connection between us is a common history, common worries, common - well, common everything
(i know, a bit buddhist)

Maybe it's communication that we lack.