What if we could use <blank>?
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Remus,
I am referring to the short-comings i see about Ruby scripting. I am sure many great advancements have been made before i came along, and I see many dedicated people writing scripts, and answering questions.Here are the reasons I believe, learning Ruby is more painful than it needs to be...
1.) Lack of free, clearly written tutorials for the Ruby language aimed at non-programmers.
2.) Lack of good examples in the Ruby SU API(#1 would cancel this out though)
3.) The need for an improved Multi-Line Interactive Console in SU.
4.) The need for a simple integrated text editor w/syntax highlighting
5.) The need for a simple to use real GUI toolkit built-in to the scripting language(script and go)These would greatly improve the SU scripting experience for all. This is the main reason for my recommendation of the Python Programming language. Python has the docs, and built-in GUI(TK) already. The text editor and multi-line console would need to be created either way.
Ruby and Python are the only two languages that stick out in the very high level programming world(IMO). Ruby and Python share some similarity's, but they also differ greatly in approach and style. The bonus here is that people could choose the language that best fits there mind-set. This would truly be beneficial to SU and all who use SU.
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I fully agree with #1 and 2. I'm not familiar with what #3 is in Ruby or any language, so I don't know what I'm missing. I'm sure it would be welcome though. Isn't there a plugin for this already? #4 is something that seems like a no brainer to include from the start, but what do I know? So I agree, it would be nice - no, more than that. Is there a way to incorporate SciTE or something into SU? It seems like there should be better real time feed back (well not realtime, but better testing and execution) inside of SU. (How are #3 and #4 different? I don't quite get what the difference is) #5 I haven't seen how poorly the built in ruby options are.
Those are some great points and they would be a good starting point for helping get more of us into ruby.
Chris
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- What is wrong with WebDialogs?
- What is wrong with the multi line consoles I mentioned? (Have you tried them?)
- Why not writing an own Python lib with the help of the Sketchup SDK instead of using a bridge and getting angry about Ruby?
I agree: Sketchup Ruby (1.8.0) is just a basic thing. "True" Ruby (>= 1.8.6) has lots of great libs.
(PLEAC Ruby - kind of documentation)
azuby
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@azuby said:
- What is wrong with WebDialogs?
- What is wrong with the multi line consoles I mentioned? (Have you tried them?)
- Why not writing an own Python lib with the help of the Sketchup SDK instead of using a bridge and getting angry about Ruby?
I agree: Sketchup Ruby (1.8.0) is just a basic thing. "True" Ruby (>= 1.8.6) has lots of great libs.
(PLEAC Ruby - kind of documentation)
azuby
I'm sorry azuby for adding my 2 cents, I realize this quote was directed @JJ.
I don't hear anyone getting angry about Ruby. All that's being discussed is having another Scripting option that would co-exist along with Ruby, within SU. I'm not a programmer, I'm not interested in learning 2 more languages just so I can incorporate WebDialogs in SU. How long are WebDialogs going to be around, before something new comes along? The Web and its content are constantly changing. Look at all the different video formats on the Web. No one can agree on a standard. We just keep adding more, because each might infringe on the patent rights of the other. However if I was 20 again and had the programing skill you speak of, I might be tempted to agree with your point of view.
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Hello Azuby,
@azuby said:
- What is wrong with WebDialogs?
Nothing that i know of, I just prefer a real GUI toolkit. The great thing about Pythons built-in GUI Tkinter is it's simplicity. Pro's and noobs will find it equally useful.
@azuby said:
- What is wrong with the multi line consoles I mentioned? (Have you tried them?)
No i haven't. What i want is a built-in Multi-Line Interactive Console in SU. The first experiance a new scripter will have is "playing around" in the console. Using a one-line-at-a-time Console will surely defeat them before they have a chance.
@azuby said:
- Why not writing an own Python lib with the help of the Sketchup SDK instead of using a bridge and getting angry about Ruby?
Good Idea!, i will look into this.
Thanks
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Hello Chris,
@chris fullmer said:
I fully agree with #1 and 2. I'm not familiar with what #3 is in Ruby or any language, so I don't know what I'm missing. I'm sure it would be welcome though. Isn't there a plugin for this already?
Python has beautiful multi line interactive console and editor in one neat builtin package called IDLE. Ruby has IRC. But what i am referring to is a replacement of the single line Ruby Console in SU. The current Ruby console only allows for one-line-at-a-time entry. Which renders it completly usless as an effective learning tool. Multi line(good). Single line(Bad).
The console can be a noobs best friend, or worst nightmare. The current implementation resides on elm st.
@chris fullmer said:
#4 is something that seems like a no brainer to include from the start, but what do I know? So I agree, it would be nice - no, more than that. Is there a way to incorporate SciTE or something into SU?
Your SciTE idea is a good but SU DEV may not want to deal with an outside editor due to version confilcts and what-not. I am proposing a very simple custom built-in editor for beginners. Pro's have various ideas as to the best text editor . Remember, pro's don't need any help, they know where to find the advanced tools they need, besides most of them will never use a built-in text editor because it does not have "this" or "that" feature. My concern are those that are both new to programming, and SU-API scripting. They need a way to get started learning quickly without adding this thing or that thing... and "HEY New Guy" don't forget this other thing too!
@chris fullmer said:
It seems like there should be better real time feed back (well not realtime, but better testing and execution) inside of SU. (How are #3 and #4 different? I don't quite get what the difference is) #5 I haven't seen how poorly the built in ruby options are.
A multiline interactive console and a text editor with syntax highlight are two very different tools but together make for easy writing/debugging of code. Small pieces of code, algorithms, etc... can be debugged/improved immediantly in the multi-line console, and then pasted into the text editor. This work-flow is paramount to a new programmers learning of a language, not to mention the SU API.
@chris fullmer said:
Those are some great points and they would be a good starting point for helping get more of us into ruby.
ChrisThis is the kind of well thought out post i am looking for from you and everybody. The ultimate goal here is to make SU scripting less painfull, and available to all who wish to learn.
Thank you Chris!
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Hi,
Tomot PM'ed me to ask what I was thinking about all this. Pfffewww, it took almost an hour to read the entire topic, and I my opinion is: "useless debate".
I have coded in Z80, basic, lisp, pascal, C (awful thing), and Ruby. For an autodidact in programming (I'm an architect) like me, it was a pain to change from procedural to OOP, but I find Ruby very easy and powerful now.
Wether Python is better or not is a question for specialists.
And I think Jessejames is REALLY annoying, to say the least.
Game over for me. -
hello Didier,
From your words you seem to be a very accomplished programmer, and i will agree. You have given greatly to the SU community with your scripts, and i thank you for you contributions.But your professional experience is actually a handicap in this discussion. It is easy for "US" to forget the struggle of a new programmer. The knowledge you and i take for granted, is a complete mystery to others.
SU is a tool aimed at modelers, not professional programmers. They need a scripting language that is well documented, widely known, and most of all easy for non-programmers to learn.
I intend to prove that Python meets and exceeds all these qualities and then some -- making it the perfect scripting language for any application.
And i want to keep Ruby. Choices are good for the users of SU. When everybody can easily write scripts for SU, they will be able to use this software(tool) to it's full potential.
Thanks
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I really tried to stay out of this thread. The whole Ruby v Python thing is a classic flame-bait topic. It has been fought a million times over on forums all over the internet. No one ever wins. And the losers are usually everyone who participates. Eventually most non-zealots agree that they are roughly equivalent in every respect and its really a matter of taste.
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PythonVsRuby
http://johan.kiviniemi.name/blag/ruby-vs-python/
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1480
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/07/24/Ruby
http://rapd.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/python-vs-ruby-the-flame-war/The reason I decided go ahead and post was to point out that it is a totally moot point. No one but Google can add a new scripting language to Sketchup. And they have specifically said that they considered Python and instead chose Ruby. Even if you convinced everyone on this board that Python is the Greatest Language Evar. It isn't going to make a bit of difference. If you really want Python I would suggest taking your arguments straight to Google.
Before you tell me I am biased let me tell you I have known Python longer and written far more code in it than Ruby. I wont answer and probably wont bother to read any Python v Ruby arguments.
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Hello CPhillips,
I have said time and time again that Ruby and Python are equals in Power. Where Python has an edge is free well written tutorials aimed at non-programmers, and a built-in GUI. I don't think there has been any flaming of languages here. Everybody has stated their opinion and i accept it. If you like Ruby over Python, i respect that, and i do not want to take it away from you. If you would like more resources on your quest to SU scripting, i give you Python.
I am not here to say "Down with Ruby or Up with Python". I want the users to have a choice between the two best high-level-languages in the world today. That's all. I could show you one site that contains 300 plus Python tutorials in 50 different categories, if there is such a site for Ruby please let me know and i will include it in my post.
I know about the long standing "bad blood" between Ruby and Python. I think this is due to two tools that achieve the same results but in very different ways. Some people find Ruby fits their brain-type and some find Python.
Ruby and Python defiantly stand out among all programming languages because of their ease of use, and are by far the best choices for scripting. My argument is that with Python, the learning resources are almost limitless, and it is easier to get started. Thats all.
Thanks
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I'm not fueling the fire, but merely making Jesse James' day. Actually, I'm just the messenger. Greg will be making Jesse's day.
http://groups.google.com/group/sketchupruby/browse_thread/thread/40b5b924ab1c90d5#
At that link, you'll find an announcement for SuPy, a plugin to use Python as your scripting language.
Todd
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@unknownuser said:
I'm not fueling the fire, but merely making Jesse James' day. Actually, I'm just the messenger. Greg will be making Jesse's day.
http://groups.google.com/group/sketchupruby/browse_thread/thread/40b5b924ab1c90d5#
At that link, you'll find an announcement for SuPy, a plugin to use Python as your scripting language.
Todd
I've always been suspicious that JJ's avatar, was helping him to be a "make my day" kind of guy
Regardless, I hope we can all take the main contents of this thread with a little more sense of humor, and good intention, rather than looking at it as a Ruby versus Python debate.
Perhaps we can end up with a second scripting alternative. Which I think would would be a huge plus. To the general SU user this would a non issue in any event. But as CPhillips has noted. It sure would be nice to hear from Google. -
@tomot said:
But as CPhillips has noted. It sure would be nice to hear from Google.
I heard from Google about the Python interface Greg is implementing. They said "Neat".
With all the whining going on about the current state of affairs with Ruby, (doc mostly, then unfixed bugs), ask yourself if you even want Google to take focus off of Ruby to implement yet another scripting language, with which the user community will most certainly want them to document, and support, and, and, and.....
I personally don't even want Google to read this post to entertain the idea of a second language. I'd rather they fix a bug or two in the one we got.
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@unknownuser said:
I'd rather they fix a bug or two in the one we got.
I second that. I'd be more than happy if SU8 only addressed bugs.
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