What if we could use <blank>?
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All this sounds interesting (apart from "bickering"
). Can you tell us when the first tuts are going to be ready. I am keen to get me going. Are you saying that you intend to make a bridge which would than enable people to use Python instead of Ruby? -
@jessejames said:
I will smash this wall to pieces, and lead you into the promised land!
I look forward to it.
@unknownuser said:
Has anybody seen such commitment for teaching/improving the SU Ruby API in SU's 9 years??
SU has only had an API since v4, and i believe there have been incremental improvements with each new version of SU, although i wouldnt be able to tell you what they were.
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@jessejames said:
Has anybody seen such commitment for teaching/improving the SU Ruby API in SU's 9 years??
The SU Ruby API was introduced as being available for the first time in June 2004 with SU V4.
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@unknownuser said:
The SU Ruby API was introduced as being available for the first time in June 2004 with SU V4.
Thanks Todd and Remus for correcting me. Here is my newly edited version.
Has anybody seen such commitment for teaching/improving the SU Ruby API in the almost 5 years since it's introduction?
? -
@remus said:
...i believe there have been incremental improvements with each new version of SU, although i wouldnt be able to tell you what they were.
points at quote
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Hello sepo,
@sepo said:
All this sounds interesting (apart from "bickering"
). Can you tell us when the first tuts are going to be ready. I am keen to get me going.The tut is in very beginning stages at this point, since i am the only author working on it. I had to stop and pursue this effort because of the current limitations of..
1.) Ruby documentation in general
2.) No built-in GUI toolkit in Ruby
3.) The single line Ruby Console in SU is detrimental to a new Rubyists learning experience.A multi-line Console must replace the current single-line console. That way a Ruby Nuby can write code in a natural way, using indention. Interactive seesions are the key to learning a new language fast and painlessly. The "get results right away" aspect of interactive consoles makes learning more fun.
But the current Console sets up users for failure before they get a chance to even start. I also think a simple built-in text editor (or plug-in) would be a great idea to simplify work flow. Most software with an API, includes some sort of text editor built in and usually it has syntax highlighting.
So my current crusade is for SU to grow a Python API. Python has the first two already, and the last would be no problem. This would also give people choices -- i like to have choices.
So far my Ruby tut only covers strings, floats, integers, and functions -- all of which still need polishing. Plus i want to include leaning the API along with Ruby at the same time by building on a simple script throughout the tutorial. This sort of "see results right away" is what will keep people interested and motivate them to learn.
Right now a huge brick wall is between you and SU scripting. I will smash this wall to pieces, and lead you into the promised land!
@sepo said:
Are you saying that you intend to make a bridge which would than enable people to use Python instead of Ruby?
I am saying i want SU to grow a Python API so people can choose which language they want. But bridging may be the only step available at this point. Then i could develop a group of advocates who could convince the SU team to include a real Python API -- since most of the work would be already complete, and the need would be proven, the incorporation would be minimal.
Hence the reason for this thread, to find out what interest there may be in "SU land" for Python scripting. All that would be needed is good API docs, Python already has thousands of great tuts out there free of charge, and Python has a great easy-to-use built-in GUI toolkit.
Most of all, i believe Python is much easier to learn, making it perfect choice for any API -- and i intend to prove that by personally tutoring anybody interested in Python scripting. That's how committed i am!
Has anybody seen such commitment for teaching/improving the SU Ruby API in SU's 9 years??
EDIT:
Has anybody seen such commitment for teaching/improving the SU Ruby API in the almost 5 years since Ruby has been here??Look, SU is the best piece of software i have ever seen, truly revolutionary 21st century software. The UI is flawless, the design is flawless. The only short-coming is the scripting API.
Scripting must be accessible for all, not just a few professionals at the top. Every hard-core user of SU will need the power scripting provides. Python like SU, is revolutionary in the programming world. The marriage of these two great powers will guarantee the upward evolution of SU for years to come!
PS: i am not upset with Chris, i just wish he would get on board with improving Ruby or including Python thats all. The only way any of this will get better is if we make it better.
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Can you say that you've done so much for the Ruby API before you actually have it done? Here's a deal, I'll heap praises upon you once you've done something.
Chris
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Remus,
I am referring to the short-comings i see about Ruby scripting. I am sure many great advancements have been made before i came along, and I see many dedicated people writing scripts, and answering questions.Here are the reasons I believe, learning Ruby is more painful than it needs to be...
1.) Lack of free, clearly written tutorials for the Ruby language aimed at non-programmers.
2.) Lack of good examples in the Ruby SU API(#1 would cancel this out though)
3.) The need for an improved Multi-Line Interactive Console in SU.
4.) The need for a simple integrated text editor w/syntax highlighting
5.) The need for a simple to use real GUI toolkit built-in to the scripting language(script and go)These would greatly improve the SU scripting experience for all. This is the main reason for my recommendation of the Python Programming language. Python has the docs, and built-in GUI(TK) already. The text editor and multi-line console would need to be created either way.
Ruby and Python are the only two languages that stick out in the very high level programming world(IMO). Ruby and Python share some similarity's, but they also differ greatly in approach and style. The bonus here is that people could choose the language that best fits there mind-set. This would truly be beneficial to SU and all who use SU.
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I fully agree with #1 and 2. I'm not familiar with what #3 is in Ruby or any language, so I don't know what I'm missing. I'm sure it would be welcome though. Isn't there a plugin for this already? #4 is something that seems like a no brainer to include from the start, but what do I know? So I agree, it would be nice - no, more than that. Is there a way to incorporate SciTE or something into SU? It seems like there should be better real time feed back (well not realtime, but better testing and execution) inside of SU. (How are #3 and #4 different? I don't quite get what the difference is) #5 I haven't seen how poorly the built in ruby options are.
Those are some great points and they would be a good starting point for helping get more of us into ruby.
Chris
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- What is wrong with WebDialogs?
- What is wrong with the multi line consoles I mentioned? (Have you tried them?)
- Why not writing an own Python lib with the help of the Sketchup SDK instead of using a bridge and getting angry about Ruby?
I agree: Sketchup Ruby (1.8.0) is just a basic thing. "True" Ruby (>= 1.8.6) has lots of great libs.
(PLEAC Ruby - kind of documentation)
azuby
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@azuby said:
- What is wrong with WebDialogs?
- What is wrong with the multi line consoles I mentioned? (Have you tried them?)
- Why not writing an own Python lib with the help of the Sketchup SDK instead of using a bridge and getting angry about Ruby?
I agree: Sketchup Ruby (1.8.0) is just a basic thing. "True" Ruby (>= 1.8.6) has lots of great libs.
(PLEAC Ruby - kind of documentation)
azuby
I'm sorry azuby for adding my 2 cents, I realize this quote was directed @JJ.
I don't hear anyone getting angry about Ruby. All that's being discussed is having another Scripting option that would co-exist along with Ruby, within SU. I'm not a programmer, I'm not interested in learning 2 more languages just so I can incorporate WebDialogs in SU. How long are WebDialogs going to be around, before something new comes along? The Web and its content are constantly changing. Look at all the different video formats on the Web. No one can agree on a standard. We just keep adding more, because each might infringe on the patent rights of the other. However if I was 20 again and had the programing skill you speak of, I might be tempted to agree with your point of view. -
Hello Azuby,
@azuby said:
- What is wrong with WebDialogs?
Nothing that i know of, I just prefer a real GUI toolkit. The great thing about Pythons built-in GUI Tkinter is it's simplicity. Pro's and noobs will find it equally useful.
@azuby said:
- What is wrong with the multi line consoles I mentioned? (Have you tried them?)
No i haven't. What i want is a built-in Multi-Line Interactive Console in SU. The first experiance a new scripter will have is "playing around" in the console. Using a one-line-at-a-time Console will surely defeat them before they have a chance.
@azuby said:
- Why not writing an own Python lib with the help of the Sketchup SDK instead of using a bridge and getting angry about Ruby?
Good Idea!, i will look into this.
Thanks
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Hello Chris,
@chris fullmer said:
I fully agree with #1 and 2. I'm not familiar with what #3 is in Ruby or any language, so I don't know what I'm missing. I'm sure it would be welcome though. Isn't there a plugin for this already?
Python has beautiful multi line interactive console and editor in one neat builtin package called IDLE. Ruby has IRC. But what i am referring to is a replacement of the single line Ruby Console in SU. The current Ruby console only allows for one-line-at-a-time entry. Which renders it completly usless as an effective learning tool. Multi line(good). Single line(Bad).
The console can be a noobs best friend, or worst nightmare. The current implementation resides on elm st.
@chris fullmer said:
#4 is something that seems like a no brainer to include from the start, but what do I know? So I agree, it would be nice - no, more than that. Is there a way to incorporate SciTE or something into SU?
Your SciTE idea is a good but SU DEV may not want to deal with an outside editor due to version confilcts and what-not. I am proposing a very simple custom built-in editor for beginners. Pro's have various ideas as to the best text editor . Remember, pro's don't need any help, they know where to find the advanced tools they need, besides most of them will never use a built-in text editor because it does not have "this" or "that" feature. My concern are those that are both new to programming, and SU-API scripting. They need a way to get started learning quickly without adding this thing or that thing... and "HEY New Guy" don't forget this other thing too!
@chris fullmer said:
It seems like there should be better real time feed back (well not realtime, but better testing and execution) inside of SU. (How are #3 and #4 different? I don't quite get what the difference is) #5 I haven't seen how poorly the built in ruby options are.
A multiline interactive console and a text editor with syntax highlight are two very different tools but together make for easy writing/debugging of code. Small pieces of code, algorithms, etc... can be debugged/improved immediantly in the multi-line console, and then pasted into the text editor. This work-flow is paramount to a new programmers learning of a language, not to mention the SU API.
@chris fullmer said:
Those are some great points and they would be a good starting point for helping get more of us into ruby.
ChrisThis is the kind of well thought out post i am looking for from you and everybody. The ultimate goal here is to make SU scripting less painfull, and available to all who wish to learn.
Thank you Chris!
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Hi,
Tomot PM'ed me to ask what I was thinking about all this. Pfffewww, it took almost an hour to read the entire topic, and I my opinion is: "useless debate".
I have coded in Z80, basic, lisp, pascal, C (awful thing), and Ruby. For an autodidact in programming (I'm an architect) like me, it was a pain to change from procedural to OOP, but I find Ruby very easy and powerful now.
Wether Python is better or not is a question for specialists.
And I think Jessejames is REALLY annoying, to say the least.
Game over for me. -
hello Didier,
From your words you seem to be a very accomplished programmer, and i will agree. You have given greatly to the SU community with your scripts, and i thank you for you contributions.But your professional experience is actually a handicap in this discussion. It is easy for "US" to forget the struggle of a new programmer. The knowledge you and i take for granted, is a complete mystery to others.
SU is a tool aimed at modelers, not professional programmers. They need a scripting language that is well documented, widely known, and most of all easy for non-programmers to learn.
I intend to prove that Python meets and exceeds all these qualities and then some -- making it the perfect scripting language for any application.
And i want to keep Ruby. Choices are good for the users of SU. When everybody can easily write scripts for SU, they will be able to use this software(tool) to it's full potential.
Thanks
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I really tried to stay out of this thread. The whole Ruby v Python thing is a classic flame-bait topic. It has been fought a million times over on forums all over the internet. No one ever wins. And the losers are usually everyone who participates. Eventually most non-zealots agree that they are roughly equivalent in every respect and its really a matter of taste.
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PythonVsRuby
http://johan.kiviniemi.name/blag/ruby-vs-python/
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1480
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/07/24/Ruby
http://rapd.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/python-vs-ruby-the-flame-war/The reason I decided go ahead and post was to point out that it is a totally moot point. No one but Google can add a new scripting language to Sketchup. And they have specifically said that they considered Python and instead chose Ruby. Even if you convinced everyone on this board that Python is the Greatest Language Evar. It isn't going to make a bit of difference. If you really want Python I would suggest taking your arguments straight to Google.
Before you tell me I am biased let me tell you I have known Python longer and written far more code in it than Ruby. I wont answer and probably wont bother to read any Python v Ruby arguments.
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Hello CPhillips,
I have said time and time again that Ruby and Python are equals in Power. Where Python has an edge is free well written tutorials aimed at non-programmers, and a built-in GUI. I don't think there has been any flaming of languages here. Everybody has stated their opinion and i accept it. If you like Ruby over Python, i respect that, and i do not want to take it away from you. If you would like more resources on your quest to SU scripting, i give you Python.
I am not here to say "Down with Ruby or Up with Python". I want the users to have a choice between the two best high-level-languages in the world today. That's all. I could show you one site that contains 300 plus Python tutorials in 50 different categories, if there is such a site for Ruby please let me know and i will include it in my post.
I know about the long standing "bad blood" between Ruby and Python. I think this is due to two tools that achieve the same results but in very different ways. Some people find Ruby fits their brain-type and some find Python.
Ruby and Python defiantly stand out among all programming languages because of their ease of use, and are by far the best choices for scripting. My argument is that with Python, the learning resources are almost limitless, and it is easier to get started. Thats all.
Thanks
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I'm not fueling the fire, but merely making Jesse James' day. Actually, I'm just the messenger. Greg will be making Jesse's day.
http://groups.google.com/group/sketchupruby/browse_thread/thread/40b5b924ab1c90d5#
At that link, you'll find an announcement for SuPy, a plugin to use Python as your scripting language.
Todd
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@unknownuser said:
I'm not fueling the fire, but merely making Jesse James' day. Actually, I'm just the messenger. Greg will be making Jesse's day.
http://groups.google.com/group/sketchupruby/browse_thread/thread/40b5b924ab1c90d5#
At that link, you'll find an announcement for SuPy, a plugin to use Python as your scripting language.
Todd
I've always been suspicious that JJ's avatar, was helping him to be a "make my day" kind of guy
Regardless, I hope we can all take the main contents of this thread with a little more sense of humor, and good intention, rather than looking at it as a Ruby versus Python debate.
Perhaps we can end up with a second scripting alternative. Which I think would would be a huge plus. To the general SU user this would a non issue in any event. But as CPhillips has noted. It sure would be nice to hear from Google. -
@tomot said:
But as CPhillips has noted. It sure would be nice to hear from Google.
I heard from Google about the Python interface Greg is implementing. They said "Neat".
With all the whining going on about the current state of affairs with Ruby, (doc mostly, then unfixed bugs), ask yourself if you even want Google to take focus off of Ruby to implement yet another scripting language, with which the user community will most certainly want them to document, and support, and, and, and.....
I personally don't even want Google to read this post to entertain the idea of a second language. I'd rather they fix a bug or two in the one we got.
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