Prince Harry Racism
-
Yeah, the kid was 19 when he said that...and in basic training with a bunch of roughneck kids.
-
I'd invite any of you to have taken my place a few years ago, comforting a friend of mine when she returned home after an otherwise ordinary day at work in floods of tears and very shaken because some little racist grunt shouted "paki!" at her while she sat on a packed stationary bus in the bus station. She was Iranian, but had fled to the UK in her early teens with her parents and brother as her father had been critical of the government and so was on their wanted list (two of his best friends had previously been taken into police custody in Iran and were never seen again). I was with her when she gained her British citizenship having lived in Scotland for 10 years; to do so she had to swear on the Koran (she isn't Muslim, but it was either that or the Bible) and swear allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen and thus her decendants.
The fact that a young member of the very family to whom my friend had to swear allegiance to would feel it's acceptable to refer to someone as "paki" (and on film!) obviously validates such racism amongst the populace. If the Royal Family aren't supposed to be role-models, then what are they for?
It's funny how I only ever hear the "political correctness gone mad" cliché rolling out of caucasian (usually male) mouths. I guess it's okay to call a colleague "faggot", "mick", "nigger", "jap" (unfortunately I already know Ron's answer to that one) or "bitch" then? Or do you draw the line somewhere?
If you think using terms like this even in a "well-intentioned" friendly way isn't harmful you are very, very wrong. They form part of a daily onslaught of prejudice which immigrants and the descendants of immigrants and women and homosexuals must endure for their entire lives, contributing to the greatly reduced likelihood of their benefiting from education and vocational systems.... but I guess that suits caucasian guys.
-
Words are given meaning by the people using them, 'paki' doesnt have to be an offensive term and i cant see any evidence it was meant to cause offence here.
@unknownuser said:
I guess it's okay to call a colleague "faggot", "mick", "nigger", "jap" (unfortunately I already know Ron's answer to that one) or "bitch" then? Or do you draw the line somewhere?
I frequently do, as i know it will be taken in jest.
@unknownuser said:
If you think using terms like this even in a "well-intentioned" friendly way isn't harmful you are very, very wrong. They form part of a daily onslaught of prejudice which immigrants and the descendants of immigrants and women and homosexuals must endure for their entire lives, contributing to the greatly reduced likelihood of their benefiting from education and vocational systems.... but I guess that suits caucasian guys.
Using those rules there would be very little being said.
-
Jackson, I understand your feelings...and probably, almost your extent, hold them myself. But I must clarify, I suppose because I am a caucasian male: As I understand it, that clip was never intended to leave that specific group; that group was hardly an environment of proper behavior; and that behavior was obviously spoken quietly enough to be interpreted as personal between the two of them.
In the service I had a black friend who, when we were alone or in a small group, often addressed me as "White Trash" or some such filth...you can imagine how I then addressed him. But I have never thought with that term nor used it in a manner similar to your example (which I shouldn't have to say I find to be a horrible ordeal I am lucky not to have experienced very often).
BTW...I also don't think he's being treated too unfairly so far: I've heard he's quite the spoiled little jerk who often needs to be reminded where and who he is. And that second clip fo him dis-ing his grandmother shows him to be an insecure little weasle...IMO.
-
Cut the Wales guy some slack....generations of inbreeding was bound to manifest itself sooner or later.
On a serious note, I have to agree with Jackson. It should never be acceptable to use derisive terms such as "nigger", "bitch", "faggot", or any other term considered in your culture as offensive when referring to people. Even if used in jest, as Remus has suggested, how would the other person know you were joking? Especially if it is overheard. Sometimes words have cultural meanings that go beyond the user's intent.
-
The world is not perfect and never will be. How can anyone seriously expect any member of the Royal family to be PERFECT 100% of the time. Heck! I don't know how any of them can hold their cool with those newspaper cameramen running around after them 24 hours and day 365 days a year.
As far a setting a good example goes I imagine then are on good behavior at official functions and the like. This is all that can be sought or expected by any reasonable person.Jackson, I am sorry that your friend was offended and broke down in tears after being called a paki. I hope you where able to comfort her and advise that the silly name caller must have been very ignorant and not worth her tears. The old adage, sticks and stones ..... still rings so, so true in these cases.
I have been referred to as a Mick, 'Paddy' by strangers during my travels. To get around the 'problem', not mine I would add, was to make eye contact with the name caller and offer a sympathetic smile then move along. This has proven to be far more effective than any other measure. Let's face it, these particular types of name callers (strangers) are sadly ignorant people and really deserve our sympathy.
-
@daniel said:
Even if used in jest, as Remus has suggested, how would the other person know you were joking? Especially if it is overheard. Sometimes words have cultural meanings that go beyond the user's intent.
Id say thats a misinterpretation on the part of the listener, hardly something that can be controlled by the person doing the talking.
-
@jackson said:
...It's funny how I only ever hear the "political correctness gone mad" cliché rolling out of caucasian (usually male) mouths. I guess it's okay to call a colleague "faggot", "mick", "nigger", "jap" (unfortunately I already know Ron's answer to that one) or "bitch" then? Or do you draw the line somewhere?...
Jackson, I don't consider "Jap" to be any more derogatory than "Yank". Political correctness is nothing more than a mechanism to control thought and speech. And as a member of the politically correct crowd, you've been well conditioned.
-
Remus, I don't know about "paki", but in the U.S. the words "nigger","faggot", and "wetback" have only derogatory meanings. Anyone overhearing them even when used in jest would be offended. If someone's banter relies on such terms, then I think it's important for them to ask why.
-
That isnt the case though, have you never heard a black man call a friend "nigger"?
-
Yes, one black person to another, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. But a more closer analogy would be a white person calling his/her black friend a nigger, and that I have not heard (and it ending peacefully).
-
The point i was trying to make is that these words dont have "only derogatory meanings." In certain situations they are perfectly acceptable.
-
I would say they are extraodinarily acceptable only in very few situations...like my friend and comrade in Thailand: it's never been appropriate again. I'd say it's about a certain view, a dark acceptance and poking fun, of the negative words.
-
The POM always started those meetings with a cheery "Morning chaps." After three meetings one of the attendees approached and said "Please do not call us Japs, we are Japanese." The resultant embarrassment all round lead to a strong and respectful relationship thereafter.
-
Jackson wrote
@unknownuser said:a friend of mine when she returned home after an otherwise ordinary day at work in floods of tears and very shaken because some little racist grunt shouted "paki!" at her while she sat on a packed stationary bus
A few days after the London tube bombings an asian friend of mine was subjected to sustained verbal abuse on a tube train from a group of office lads that he saw on the tube daily. They were shouting, "Don't sit near him, he might blow up!" When he got off at the station these idiots got off too and were threatening to attack him. As he saw them daily, he did the right thing in my opinion and punched the ringleader. Otherwise they would have made his life a misery from then on. It shut them up instantly. An underground security guard who was also asian intervened and told my friend to make himself scarce as even though the whole incident was on CCTV, the metropolitan police would most likely side against him because he is asian. Not that it should make any difference but he, like his father, was born in the UK, has a British passport and has a brilliant job so he probably pays more in tax than any one of those morons. But he can't rely on the police.
-
@jackson said:
@remus said:
I frequently do, as i know it will be taken in jest.
You don't know it will be taken in jest, you assume that it will be taken in jest and one day your assumption will be wrong. Where do you think the expression "children are so cruel" comes from?
When the day comes i will apologise, although i like to think i know my friends well enough to know what is acceptable.
@unknownuser said:
@remus said:
Using those rules there would be very little being said.
Huh? Somehow I, my friends and colleagues manage to socialise and work every day without using racist, or sexist or homophobic terms, entire books are written, TV programmes are made, forums buzz along for years without need for these words. What world are you living in where by omitting offensive terms you would find it almost impossible to communicate? It's 15 years ago since I was 17 years old, but even then I probably only heard racist language used in school a handful of times in 6 years at secondary school.
The point i was trying to make is that if you aim not to offend you wont get very far. People take offense at a lot of things.
@unknownuser said:
It's irrelevant what you consider to be offensive to another race. If you told me you didn't want to be called a "yank" as it had negative connotations I'd happily oblige (although it's not a term I use anyway). The fact that "jap" has been used, especially since the Second World War, to insult and intimidate the American descendants of Japanese immigrants should be enough to suggest that it's not a term which should be used in general terms.
This is another case of misunderstanding, in my opinion. The listener takes the speakers words to have a meaning other than what was intended.
-
Hi Jackson
You really should submit your piece to The Grauniard.
I think you'll find that is your natural home.Name calling may be unpleasant, but in the context of men in the armed forces, its safe to assume that they will have to deal with slightly more scary issues in their careers.
Have we really reached a point were fighting men are to be regarded as such sensitive souls that we can't hurt their feelings? Perhaps we should prevent officers from shouting orders in their faces? It must be so upsetting!
It may come as a shock to discover that Metro-males are not what the armed forces need. Men who don't cry when called names might make better soldiers don't you think?
I can't believe I am having to state the bleeding obvious!@unknownuser said:
It's funny how I only ever hear the "political correctness gone mad" cliché rolling out of caucasian (usually male) mouths.
Are you as critical of the lyrics produced by black rappers with the same outrage and passion as you condemn white racism?
I was born in Liverpool (something I had no choice in) and we are refered to as Scousers. There are thousands of insulting jokes about us. Do I want anyone locked up for telling these jokes? Do I want anyone to lose their jobs for telling these jokes? Do I want anyone punished in any way for telling these jokes? No, No, No!
Yet again, it is the so-called "liberals" who want to dictate to us how we should live our lives.
God help us from guilt-ridden white liberals!
(And I'm an atheist!)Regards
Mr S -
@daniel said:
Yes, one black person to another, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. But a more closer analogy would be a white person calling his/her black friend a nigger, and that I have not heard (and it ending peacefully).
I have a friend who I call nigger, and he calls me white nigger, not once have we had a fight.
Yes I am poking fun, but not at my friend, at racism.
Like Remus said, if you're not meaning it as an insult, then what's the problem?
I refuse to refrain from saying what I feel I can say just for the fear of upsetting people to whom the comment was not directed.Oh and Mr S, you took the words right out of my mouth. Well said.
Pav
-
Mr. S, I find myself agreeing with you and Ron on this issue, please do not let this compliance reflect negatively on my 'liberal' status.
-
Mr S,
Yes, soldiers experience scarier things than "name calling", but how much better do you think they would cope with them if they also knew that their commanding officer thought of them as an equal (or rather a lower-ranking equal) rather than dismissed them as "little Pakis"?
If only it was name-calling- a childhood friend of mine joined the British Army when he was 17. He had always been a bit antagonistic, but not to the point of really offending anyone (and never racist). He came back just one year later with an anecdote about how he and his fellow trainees beat up a fellow pakistani trainee for "a laugh". Of everyone at his "welcome home party" I was the only one who told him what I thought of him, everyone else just shifted uncomfortably in their chairs and changed the subject. In what way is being racially abused, in any form, a valuable part of the training of a modern professional soldier? Even the army itself has, over the last 20 years, recognised the need for soldiers (and especially officers) to have basic diplomatic skills as a means of winning the battle of propaganda in modern warfare. Not much point if the Queen's grandson is walking around airports recording himself on video calling his better-qualified colleague his "little Paki friend". I'm sure that really won the "hearts and minds" in the Middle East battlezones. For the same reason I would agree with some that the person who sold the video is as guilty (if not more than) as Harry of endangering his colleague's lives.
@mr s said:
Are you as critical of the lyrics produced by black rappers with the same outrage and passion as you condemn white racism?
Yes and no. I am critical of gangster rap lyrics as they perpetuate the oppression and violence of African-American communities. But I'm not as critical of an uneducated black guy from a bad neighbourhood writing lyrics referring to his cohorts as "niggers" as I am of the third in line to the British throne who has benefited from the best education tax-payers' money can buy referring to his colleagues by racist terms. As Harry himself is the third generation descendant of an immigrant (whose parents changed their surname to avoid racism, how cowardly!) maybe we should come up with a new name for him.
As far as "liberals" dictating how people should live their lives in my experience it's generally been the more right-wing people I've met who are lacking in empathy and overflowing with the desire to inform everyone else why they're right and everyone else is wrong.
This thread will obviously descend into troll territory soon, right-wingers and left-wingers digging themselves into opposing trenches and lobbing Molotov cocktails back and forth , but neither budging an inch.
Advertisement