POLL: SCF Gallery- is bumping OK?
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I've looked at the Green Toaster Thread (GTT) several times over the past months. I like that it's a long thread IE 40+ pages now. I mentally remember what page it was on the last time I visited and the next time I feel compelled to browse to that thread I find it and pick up where I left off or just look at the last few pages. If for example that thread were broken up into several topics I would not mentally keep track of my interest in several separate topics of similar interest. So the long and short of it is that I think we should allow for topics to grow as long as they want and as long as the posters in that topic find interest in and continue to post new material of a similar nature.
I think a topic with over 20 posts is probably rare and a topic with over 40 posts is probably very rare I'm just guessing here but I gather that most posts are less than 20 reply's and then they melt into obscurity.
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@johnsenior1973 said:
I'd even argue over whether he is bumping his thread anyway. I've just had a look through the last few pages of his thread and each new post has included either new work or he's developed his model further. "Bumping" is when someone posts a new post solely to get the thread back into the first page. That's not what he's done at all.
Doesn't seem like it, does it? Looks like he's just having fun. Which is great, as far as I'm concerned. As for people complaining about that thread's length: what of it? It takes neither special skill or effort to skip a thread. There, problem solved. This issue is a non-issue.
@stu said:
This used to MY forum!...and I used to CARE about it!!
That's your problem right there, isn't it? It isn't your forum. It's our forum. So it won't ever be exactly the way you like it. That's life for ya.
Seems you get two things confused, too. The question was: is it okay to bump your thread? You seem to be mainly concerned with the quality (or lack thereof) of the stuff posted. Which is okay, of course. Nevertheless, what do you propose then? SU is a very easy app to learn - therefor it attracts amateurs like yours truly. It's inavoidable that some stuff in the Gallery of a forum dedicated to all things SU will not be up to professional standards. As far as I can see, the only way around that, is to impose some form of selection. Someone will have to sift through pending posts. Tedious work, of course, but useful. We'll need someone with great taste, a thorough knowledge of SU, and great stamina. I suggest you - I have nothing but confidence in your abilities to handle this daunting task.
Well ... that's one approach. Another, as I said before, is to post good stuff yourself. Either way, put your money where your mouth is, rather than sitting around complaining and insulting other members "methaphorically".
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Stinkie, I can see why you may be a bit sensitive on this issue...and I can understand why you wouldnt like to see your own gallery post [is it your first?] sink into obscurity
Ok the 'My Forum' thing was obviously a statement of feeling rather than an actual belief or wish on my part. [The nuances of the English language can be devilish at times!]
Yes the forum is developing into a broad church and I think its maybe time some policy decisions were made re its direction...Is it just going to be 'All about SketchUp'......anything goes as long as there is no swearing, flaming or advertising by prospective Russian Brides?
I would like to think that 'the pursuit or excellence' comes somewhere into the calculation.
If this was the case I dont feel that blatent serial posters would be tolerated for too long.
And.... 'put up or shut up'? Well I post here in the gallery now and then.....my guess is that nobody posted more stuff than me in the old @Last gallery and there was a time when it seemed that half the mastheads on the @Last website pages were from my images...so mate, I have some form.
And the sad part, you know, is that the most vocal people here are often the least talented. -
@stu said:
Stinkie, I can see why you may be a bit sensitive on this issue...and I can understand why you wouldnt like to see your own gallery post [is it your first?] sink into obscurity
Uhmmm ... right. I'm a grownup. Really, I couldn't care less if my thread sunk in to obscurity. The only reason I post, is to get constructive feedback. "This is too big", "that is too red" - you know. Love that. Very useful. I merely posted most of my thingies in one thread to keep things tidy.
@stu said:
Ok the 'My Forum' thing was obviously a statement of feeling rather than an actual belief or wish on my part. [The nuances of the English language can be devilish at times!]
Careful now, Stu. One hair away from being patronizing.
@stu said:
Yes the forum is developing into a broad church and I think its maybe time some policy decisions were made re its direction...Is it just going to be 'All about SketchUp'......anything goes as long as there is no swearing, flaming or advertising by prospective Russian Brides?
That's a caricature. Why don't you lay off the metaphores and hyperboles and flat out tell us in which direction you'd like SCF to head?
@stu said:
I would like to think that 'the pursuit or excellence' comes somewhere into the calculation.
Well, it should. I aim for excellence. Am I there yet? Not quite. But posting here sure has helped to get where I am right now.
@stu said:
.....my guess is that nobody posted more stuff than me in the old @Last gallery and there was a time when it seemed that half the mastheads on the @Last website pages were from my images...so mate, I have some form.
Irrelevant.
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Stu wrote:
@unknownuser said:
most vocal people here are often the least talented.
Oh crap!! I just noticed my post count....
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Pete, after some careful consideration I think I should exclude you from that list
Seriously though, am I the only one that thinks the forum could be heading down the gurgler?"Uhmmm ... right. I'm a grownup. Really, I couldn't care less if my thread sunk in to obscurity. The only reason I post, is to get constructive feedback. "This is too big", "that is too red" - you know. Love that. Very useful. I merely posted most of my thingies in one thread to keep things tidy."
Hmmm yes....good one Stinkie!
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Thanks, Stu. Now, what is your plan of action?
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Plan? What Plan?...I just like going around upsetting people!
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Nothing more to offer than ranting, "metaphores", and easy irony then?
moving on
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@unknownuser said:
I dont think people do it out of selfishness, just through wanting to show their work without cluttering the gallery with new threads..
Some people do, some don't. On the old @last forum Gallery there were NO "personal gallery" threads, folks either had the manners to let others keep their thread active or the common sense to realise that by continuously posting in their own thread they are abusing the "last-post-first" system, unfairly pushing other members' threads off the first page before people even get a chance to see them. Regarding selfishness, you only have to look at the "most active topic" for several members whose topics are constantly on the front page to see who is more interested in promoting/discussing/bumping their own work than contributing to the forum as a whole.@tomsdesk said:
I don't see a difference to the forum...if someone wanted to "hog the limelight" they could just as well post a new thread as "bumping" an old one: sameo-sameo.
You really don't see a difference to the forum? Until a year ago there were no permament front page topics, now there's several, all of which have been blatantly bumped by their author when they dropped off the front page. As bumping has apparently become the only way to get your "fair" share of recognition here, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't 10 or more such perma-topics in a year's time from now, effectively halving the exposure that the Gallery should provide.@johnsenior1973 said:
"Bumping" is when someone posts a new post solely to get the thread back into the first page. That's not what he's done at all.
(Re: GreenToaster) Isn't it? It's certainly a convenient side-effect that every time you post in your own thread it gets another day's exposure and 100 views though isn't it? One member recently added a post 2 months after the most recent post in their thread just to say that they had edited their first post; what possible reason could you have for adding a post to say you've edited your first post other than "this'll get me another few days on the front page"? If it was just about improving the quality of the thread, the edit did that, but the post referring to it was a bump, plain and simple.@unknownuser said:
I think a topic with over 20 posts is probably rare and a topic with over 40 posts is probably very rare I'm just guessing here but I gather that most posts are less than 20 reply's and then they melt into obscurity.
That's exactly my point. Before the last-post-first system was adopted (on the @last forums) it was talent alone that decided how many views a topic received as fans would eagerly follow them whether they were on the front page or the 20th. No great topic "melted into obsurity" as members frequently linked back to them in other threads, ensuring great work or advice was passed on as long as it was relevant. For several years after the system was changed, good manners and common sense meant that even the most talented authors let their topics slip off the front page when others stopped posting. That's sadly no longer the case IMO.@unknownuser said:
As for people complaining about that thread's length: what of it? It takes neither special skill or effort to skip a thread. There, problem solved. This issue is a non-issue.
To address your last statement first, currently 40% of respondants don't think it's a non-issue, so it's a little arrogant to dismiss it. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across. Regarding your first point, you're right, it doesn't take much effort to skip a thread, but it does to skip 5 or 6 threads and more so to keep checking the second page to see if any good work has been pushed back there before anyone even had a chance to see it. If the current trend continues a year from now I'll be checking the 3 and fourth pages to just get a glimpse of new work from new members.@unknownuser said:
As far as I can see, the only way around that, is to impose some form of selection.
Far from it. A sticky outlining forum etiquette would be one way, removing the last-post-first system would be another (not ideal IMO), but probably the most effective would be for more people who would rather not see a tiny minority claim the SCF Gallery front page as their territory to speak up and vote here.I'd like to make one thing clear, my concern isn't rooted in some sense of possession of the SCF forums, or nostalgia for the good old days (although I am nostalgic haha), or a personal feud with any individuals or dislike for their work. It's simply about returning the SCF Gallery to being somewhere where everyone can get their fair share of recognition rather than have their work shoved aside by a minority who cannot stand to be out of the limelight for more than a few hours. They are the ones who are (intentionally or not) claiming the forum as their own.
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Im still not convinced. For me it comes down to the fact that if you post good work in the gallery you get recognised for it. As long as thats happening im happy.
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I still think that things ought to be left the way they are. However...there is a much broader church here now than the effective 100% professional users that used the old @Last forum; and it seems obvious that some people just dont "get it". Therefore a sticky explaining the netiquette of not hogging the front page might be useful.
If that fails (and I think we are only talking about a small number of people here...so it wouldn't be too onerous to have a mods discussion on individual cases) then a PM ought to be sent to the people concerned, suggesting they show a little more consideration for other users. If that fails, lock the thread so it sinks naturally.
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@jackson said:
@unknownuser said:
As for people complaining about that thread's length: what of it? It takes neither special skill or effort to skip a thread. There, problem solved. This issue is a non-issue.
To address your last statement first, currently 40% of respondants don't think it's a non-issue, so it's a little arrogant to dismiss it. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across.If you know I didn't mean it that way, why bother pointing it out? Let me anwer that for ya: to get a little rhetorical leverage.
And Jackson, really, how arrogant is bluntly assuming that people keep adding to one thread "to hog the limelight"? I find that quite an arrogant and insulting persumption. As I pointed out before, I for one aimed at keeping things tidy. I do admit, it takes some suspension of disbelief to assume that people mean well. Come to think of it, just about as much as it takes to assume the opposite.
I wouldn't be opposed to some new rules, btw.
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@jackson said:
Stinkie,
I was trying to put it as polite as possible, especially as I know you're not an arrogant person. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but if you want to argue about it rather than just saying "ok, my bad", fine. There's no need to go on the warpath in a thread just because someone disagrees with you. I actually remember clearly when the continuing feud between you and Stu started (something to do with J1mmy/Goon of Doom I think): simply because you misunderstood one sentence Stu wrote you started laying into him, he retaliated and so it continues. I just wanted to say, as politely as possible that your choice of words came over as arrogant so that we could move on.
My current disagreement with Stu has, as far as I'm concerned nothing to do with previous disagreements he and I had. I feel his arguments are wrong, that's all. Mind if I add that the stray dog metaphore was quite rude? But what has this to do with me saying that this issue is a non-issue? That was the remark you called arrogant, wasn't it?
@jackson said:
@unknownuser said:
As I pointed out before, I for one aimed at keeping things tidy. I do admit, it takes some suspension of disbelief to assume that people mean well. Come to think of it, just about as much as it takes to assume the opposite.
As I explained before, I do not assume that the motive behind authors who continuously post in their own threads is selfish."Remus wrote:
"I dont think people do it out of selfishness, just through wanting to show their work without cluttering the gallery with new threads.."Some people do, some don't."
"The worst "offender" has now posted over 500 images of similar models in the same thread, none of which are particularly informative. In other cases authors simply add an extra line of "information" or refer to an edit when they see that their thread is almost off the front page giving it another week or two of attention."
"With a default of 25 threads per page I wonder how long it will be until the front page of the SCF Gallery is completely dominated by 25 (or less) members who continuously bump their own threads to keep them up top?"
"A tiny minority of members, however, who repeatedly add to/bump their own thread rather than starting a new one seem to be displaying a rather selfish unwillingness to allow others a fair share of the publicity that the Gallery should allow."
EDIT: I must say I feel I'm perhaps being too hard on both you and Stu, Jackson. I think you both mean well. However, populist and skewy rhetorics don't sit well with me. In any case, maybe a new rule would be useful. Peace?
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Stinkie,
I was trying to put it as polite as possible, especially as I know you're not an arrogant person. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but if you want to argue about it rather than just saying "ok, my bad", fine. There's no need to go on the warpath in a thread just because someone disagrees with you. I actually remember clearly when the continuing feud between you and Stu started (something to do with J1mmy/Goon of Doom I think): simply because you misunderstood one sentence Stu wrote you started laying into him, he retaliated and so it continues. I just wanted to say, as politely as possible that your choice of words came over as arrogant so that we could move on.
@unknownuser said:
And Jackson, really, how arrogant is bluntly assuming that people keep adding to one thread "to hog the limelight"? I find that quite an arrogant and insulting persumption.
It's not arrogant (as in boastful or overconfident), it's an opinion based on observing what and when certain people choose to post in their own threads. If it makes you feel any better, I didn't actually regard you as one of them as you at least contribute and demonstrate good manners elsewhere on the SCF forums.@unknownuser said:
As I pointed out before, I for one aimed at keeping things tidy. I do admit, it takes some suspension of disbelief to assume that people mean well. Come to think of it, just about as much as it takes to assume the opposite.
As I explained before, I do not assume that the motive behind all authors who continuously post in their own threads is selfish. I realise that that there is a logical argument held by perfectly reasonable people that containing all their work within one thread keeps the forum tidy. If that's the case however, why do many of these people also start new threads? Even if they did stick to one thread, what if everyone, even with the best intentions, did the same thing? The public face of the SCF Gallery would not be determined by quality or even date or relevance, but by who has the most spare time to sit and bump "their" threads most frequently. You only have to glance at the 3D Warehouse to see the demographic who are best equipped for this activity and frankly if even the better (and maturer) members here aren't willing to set a good example then it's only a matter of time before the SCF Gallery front page is dominated by "Yoz WaZzuP, mi car kullekshun, kom IN Or kKEp oUt". Sounds far-fetched? It already started. -
@jackson said:
That was an oversight, I edited it:
@jackson said:
As I explained before, I do not assume that the motive behind all authors who continuously post in their own threads is selfish.
That changes things entirely.
@jackson said:
If it's done with the intent of keeping their topic on the front page it's selfish, if it's done with the intent of limiting the number of threads they take up on the forum it's well-intended (unless they simultaneously create new threads while bumping their old ones).
Ah ... but what about people who seem to do that, while they just started a new thread because they recently read that's the way The Coen prefers it?
I did that. My point is: in many cases (not all) there's really no way of precisely asserting whether or not someone's in it for the 0.0001 seconds of fame. Just like there's no way of knowing for sure that omitting that "all" was an oversight or not. Easy now ... I believe ya. Merely trying to make a point. -
That was an oversight, I edited it:
@jackson said:
As I explained before, I do not assume that the motive behind all authors who continuously post in their own threads is selfish.
If it's done with the intent of keeping their topic on the front page it's selfish, if it's done with the intent of limiting the number of threads they take up on the forum it's well-intended (unless they simultaneously create new threads while bumping their old ones). Either way, if everyone did it the SCF Gallery front page would be neither a showcase for new work nor the best of the older stuff.... and it's definitely becoming more common.
Hell, if you can't beat 'em join 'em, I'll start doing it, I've been working on a model and renders for 2 weeks, I've probably rendered 100+ test renders, I should post one every day for the next 4 months, or better still, wait until it drops to the second page then post another.
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Just as a point of information (I'm not entering the arguement at all :`) but the first thing I hit is "new posts" and I assume I get all the posts posted since I last logged in...? Since I go through this list completely (sometimes several pages) I assume I see every new post (except the ones in forums not included in this "search" by the powers that be)...? So, Jackson: how am I missing anyone's posts as it seems to me I've bypassed your concerns...?
And again...just asking to be educated.
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Bruce, you assume too much. Jackson is no longer a Mod and this topic was not discussed behind the scenes.
Tom, FYI in response to your post, I look at the new posts in a completely different way. Not that it is any better, I am just pointing it out as a point of reference. I go to each forum directly from the Index page. I seem to be in a better frame of mind knowing I am going into the Gallery to look at images, or into the Ruby Forum to look for scripts, etc. Again, just FYI.
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Modelhead,
Fisrt and foremost (and I'm not shouting this, I just want to make sure that everyone see it), I am not a moderator, have not been a moderator for over 6 months now and my views are completely my own and do not represent those of SCFs admin or moderators in any way.
I didn't set out to single out GreenToaster or mention any names (although I realise they'd be easy to deduce), I just responded to other replies and had to say who I was referring to. I knew I'd come in for fire over this as anyone who ever expresses concern over an individual or individuals' behaviour on this forum does... apathy is so much safer.@tomsdesk said:
Since I go through this list completely (sometimes several pages) I assume I see every new post (except the ones in forums not included in this "search" by the powers that be)...? So, Jackson: how am I missing anyone's posts as it seems to me I've bypassed your concerns...?
It's a hard to answer without sounding facetious, but obviously if, every time you visit SCF you take the time to view every single new post you wouldn't miss any posts. In any case clicking on "view new posts" is effectively exactly the same (but quicker overall) as simply opening any of the forums as all new posts are top most. Trouble is I doubt many people read all new posts (although I may be wrong), they just go to the forums that interest them and see what's cooking... unfortunately lately it's seems to be pretty much the same menu every day.
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