I believe (part two...

tomsdesk

The love is omnipresent. I would risk that a theory that even a matter is made of love. We all are.
'Our Father' and Franciscan brotherhood with a nature is not a coincidence. We are woven of Love.
It is why if one denies it and turns into violence and hate it destroys himself. He\she denies very self.
On the other hand - someone deeply inspired by love will not only grow but will let others see the light.

I like Juan's analogy - the Love & an air. The Love isn't something that one can posses. You can breath it in and let it do its job - give it away. Love is dynamic like an air.

Tom-ash

Excellent! Still processing all you (and Juan) have put here so eloquently.

(Alan, you are fortunate...I have several times tried to find the brotherhood of a congregation, but never found one open-minded enough to allow me to comfortably voice or discuss my belief questions in any framework other than the dogma of the particular sect.)

tomsdesk

Hmmmm...Juan: maybe I'm strabic as well, and so just can't see what I've seen :`) As for:
@juanv.soler said:

...the day you see the Light will be fantastic
one can hope. Or maybe my eyes will just be immediately burned blind again...? Either way, one can hope.

Nonetheless, for now I feel blind...therefore I am blind for now. (What do you think of the parable? It is one of my favorites. I think the Raja quite myopic as well: presuming to know the beast before him well enough to laugh at those who are searching for truth of it so up close and personal.)

JuanV.Soler

Tom ,
"...I am admittedly fully, and often painfully, aware of my own blindness"
so how can you be so sure about your blindness ?
are you sure ?
if so , you are fortunate, for from that awareness you have of your own blindness, the day you see the Light will be fantastic
I have not consciusness of my blindness at all,
maybe it is because I always tended to have my eyes wide-opened and I am strabic, maybe.
_hum

boofredlay

Well speaking of what we believe and our faith;
Barack Obama is running for our President and
I'm not sure if he even knows what he believes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qotHTtr30I

Now yes, I did see the whole interview and get
that comment in context but that is one big
slip if you ask me.
Oops

JuanV.Soler

I did not know the parable. I quote it here :

"Once upon a time there was a certain Raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.
"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'
"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.
"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.
"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.

I dont think the Raja was quite myopic as well.
I would say that the Raja was just only taking advantage of his not-blind vision.
Not fair.
and what happened to those blind people who were searching for truth of it so up close and personal is, that they did not follow their instinct completely, for, otherwise they should have realised they were touching just one part of the beast¡

_hum

tomsdesk

I give up...boo Boo.

There was a thread started over the weekend for candidate bashing (if that's what accidentally misspeaking himself a muslim is...I'm sure he was thinking about all the blogs saying as such but that McSame had never called him one). This flick would get betterresponse there I'm sure.

boofredlay

boo Boo?
Give up?... what?

Well I don't think I was bashing Obama, I believe I was posting a link to a slip about his faith.
This is the current faith (belief) thread is it not?
Not that I believe he is a Muslim, I just thought it was a pretty big slip.

My bad if it was off topic.

If you are sure it would get a better response in the candidate bashing thread then go ahead and put it there.

Cheers.

boofredlay

@juanv.soler said:

So that means you have got the TRUE_REAL BIBLE

The protestant bible that I read and the many different translations I study, I believe were inspired by God. Does that mean I don’t believe that the Catholic Bible was not inspired? No. Just as there are many different teaching methods for a certain subject, I believe the different translations; syntax or language, are tools God uses and has inspired to teach us his nature and the ultimate purpose of Jesus Christ.

@juanv.soler said:

IF GOD CHANGED HIS COMMUNICATIONS METHODS, WHERE ARE THERE WRITTEN HIS NEW METHODS ?

I am not going to presume that I know all of God’s communication methods. However, the writings you ask for can be found in the book of Acts. 1:1-9 and 2:1-13.
On this day, with the Holy Spirit, God’s communication with us changed.

@juanv.soler said:

Yes Boo, but you are not God are you ?

I never said that.

JuanV.Soler

Thanks for answering Boo,
You were talking about yourself comparing the trinity,
that is why I joked about it.
Could you please elaborate ? :...the writings you ask for can be found in the book of Acts. 1:1-9 and 2:1-13.
i dont seem to find them.
Thank you.

if you want it, of course.

Stinkie

@unknownuser said:

Well the writings and “saviors of science” you guys keep quoting don’t even seem to agree with each other.

Science is about disagreement and conflict. It is the exact opposite of what the French call 'la pensée unique'.

JuanV.Soler

That was so good to hear Tomasz,
thankyou
as you I am expecting more confessions

JuanV.Soler

I guess is a difficult job.

I think that to keep this thread running, with the venia from Tom, for I think we have naked to show and share our feelings that care,

we could now start a time showing the things we dont believe.

The wrong thing here is that I have to be the first to say.
I dont believe in the Large Hard_run Collider

tomasz

@juanv.soler said:

as you I am expecting more confessions

Patience, my friend If the thread was meant to die it will.
I know at least one person how have experienced same feeling in his dream.
I have experienced it also in reality, being awake but I prefer to wait.
I don't want to be one man orchestra I have found exact icon
I have been preparing it for quite a long time before I have posted.
He is calling me to share. I cannot keep it and I don't want to.
It would be very selfish if I would.
Please PM me if something doesn't make sense in English tense-wise

tomasz

I like the Raja parable. Thanks Juan for the quotation. I am wondering where is it coming from? India? The wisdom comes from listening. Same as faith.

Talking about the Elephant... I would like to write few words about my experience of Him.
I can't say I know him and that I know how he really is, but what I have experienced it describes Him in general.
In other words I won't say that he is a column, because I haven't touched his leg, but I know that he is big, because he passed in front of me with high speed and I have almost fallen down.
Therefore I can say his size is huge.

It was almost 20 years ago and it was not in reality, but only in a dream. I don't remember my dream from the beginning if there was such. I just remember that I has been taken out from the Earth high up. The blue plannet was getting smaller and smaller and surrounding was getting brighter and brighter. I have had a gradually increasing feeling that all my problems, all problems of the Earth are not that important and not that scary. I have started to worry about my parents and all loved one I had left on the planet, but that feeling has vanished as well. Its place has been taken by growing peace and I realized I hear an choir somewhere singing just one waving sound and noticed that the light is very bright then ... it has hit me. The feeling of LOVE AND PEACE I cannot describe in words. It was so immense, so powerful that I haven't even thought about a fear. It was the peace Jesus has said that the World cannot give. 100% of peace, undisturbed by the smallest pain, smallest worry - nothing. Perfect safety in father arms. The most powerful and the most loving Father ever. I has woken up. It has been a morning. I have known something has changed deep, deep in me. The World was the same.

@unknownuser said:

So what prompts you to make the statement ?God is Love?? How do you know? Where are you getting your information from? What is the ?It? you are referring to?

It is my source. My ?it?.

I have hope that someone will share his experience of our Father. I know that Buddhists experience Nothing, American Indians were meeting the Great Spirit. I intended to post my testimony somewhere else, on more 'appropriate' forum, but we have the corner bar here and the interesting thread.

So share your experiences, not quotes, please. I am really curious. Maybe we will get better view of our Elephant.

Cheers
Tomasz

Stinkie

lol. Lucky you. My cats are spiteful little bstrds. As is the Jaweh I remember from, errr, 'bible class'. Scared the hell out of me as a kid. I wasn't religious even back then, but still.

In any case. Question for you religious folks out there (you know I love you, right? ). Whenever we vile atheists mock you guys, y'all get mighty upset. Oh, you do. "How dare you tread upon the very thing that's dearest to us?" And then you guys start saying how we hurt your feelings, and how we should understand this, and understand that, and so on.

But ... errr ... dunno ... Ain't that a bit weird? Because, you know, aren't you the very same peeps who believe the likes of us will be and should be tortured in hell for all eternity? Eh?

Double standards - that's the phrase that comes to mind, isn't it?

Boys?

Hm?

tomasz

@unknownuser said:

@unknownuser said:

"Love is ...

I believe my cat is very close to being god...at least as described above.

You are happy man, modelhead!

You both have eyes, but do not see. You both heave ears, but do not hear.

Many have broken their teeth on Old Testament. Start with the New and do not fear to listen to your heart, not only to your mind.

boofredlay

@unknownuser said:

@unknownuser said:

I believe my cat is very close to being god...at least as described above.

But given the chance I bet your cat would kill and eat a mouse

Stinkie, it is very difficult to have a religious discussion without toes being stepped on. That said... am I upset? No. Do I believe the likes of you should go to hell, not at all. Furthermore it is not my (or any Christian's) right to judge anyone; that is left up to God himself. I agree it is difficult to express one's view, especially a religious one, without sounding judgmental. And there are some who feel it is their right to judge, but it is not. I have accepted the gift God has offered and only want to share it with others.

I heard a good one this week... Atheism: A non Prophet organization.

JuanV.Soler

Tomasz,
Ok, I will be patient.
and I think I understand you.

stinkie,
that is not true. We dont get upset when you mock at us, the well_known believers, saying that our *** is non_existent, it is you who gets upset when we tell you that your God you are talking about has nothing to do with ours

Boofredlay,
and now Boo, dont escape.
Tell us where you hide those writings.

Stinkie

@unknownuser said:

Furthermore it is not my (or any Christian's) right to judge anyone; that is left up to God himself.

Fair enough ... as in my view that means I can pretty much do anything! Not that I would. Morals. Ugh.

Yah ... it is fairly hard to discuss this sort of thing without offending anyone. I remember really mild jokes being made about Christ being a goalie for Nazareth United, or something along those lines, and someone reacting upset. That was what I was referring to. I remember thinking: you kidding? You think I deserve hell, but you can't take this kind of soft mockery? Come on!

That said, this is a subject I get riled up over pretty fast myself.

Frankly - and I'm not trying to insult anyone - I find it absolutely strange that the Almighty still plays such a large role in the lives of so many. Imagine this: half the world believes the Easter Bunny is real, and you don't.

solo

Which brings me to an observation...
I try not get involved in such debates/ discussions as there can never be a winner or loser as even with archeological proof of artifacts dating beyond six thousand years many fundamentally dogmatic believers refuse to acknowledge their existence.

However on arriving in Texas almost nine years ago I was amazed how fundamental and commercial religion was south of the Mason Dixon, how shallow the members of such ‘clans’ were.

But what I never could understand and yet to get an answer on was the first Christmas in Dallas my then girlfriend suggested that we attend the local Baptist church. Now this was no normal church in my opinion as it was more like ‘six flags over Jesus’ (a theme park) it had a Starbucks in it, three restaurants, many shopping stores, a gym, sports facilities, a theatre, etc (list goes on) I noticed in the main foyer a guy dressed in a Santa suit giving kids gifts and the interior of the church decorated with many symbols of the red dressed idol.
On asking the question of why is Santa represented as a symbol of Christmas to young kids when the real message is the birth of Jesus the answer I got ranged from tradition to bringing joy to kids that are too young to understand the truth.
Is this not a false god? If indeed the kids are too young to understand then why lie to them?
How disappointing it must be to a kid to reach the ‘age of understanding’ and be told by the folk they are now to believe about ‘the truth’ are the same people who lied to them about the Jolly Red giant.

I see the same bunch are getting ready for Halloween soon, I wonder how they explain this one to the kids.