This is fantastic!
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I have to agree with Kannonbal. Sketchup really does seem slow to progress. Not to take away from the "Killer" tool that it is, since Sketchup has truly caused for my 3D abilities to be where they are today. I have to admit that I'am disapointed that Sketchup does not seem to progress with the times. There seems to be so many 3rd party application that have come out since V.6 and have continued to pregress when SketchUp has not. I just want to get excited for some new Sketchup stuff.
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The little thought and research I've given just recently to animation added to this thread prompts me to ask: Is there another 3d program more suited to presentation that will accept skippys? One that will take the work I get paid to do and jump it to the next level?
SU5's my main man and as much of one as I will ever need for my little practice. I use SU6 only for photo match (and rarely use that interface, just the image background and fuss it match on my own...I haven't yet even downloaded the latest beta release :`)
But so far, every time I've dangled a carrot in front of my clients they've followed along if it hasn't appeared to cost too much...which means I've been paid some for learning and having fun. I'm certainly willing to raise the bar for myself.
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There are plenty of softwares that will accept 3ds, fbx, or obj formats, all of which Sketchup Pro will export. As far as taking skippies, that list is much smaller, and perhaps empty in the Mac world.
Tom, I, too, am running a "small" business. I have actually been a custom builder and furniture maker for the last 17 years and architectural visualization is a pretty recent reinvention of myself. When I first learned about Sketchup it was the closest thing to religion I had encountered in a long time. I mean, I was a total believer. But, I have a nasty habit of pushing envelopes and taking things to their limits. And my initial euphoria is waning because I have run up against limitations that are not being addressed. There are no quick and easy (one of the things that Sketchup completely kicks a#$ at) solutions for quality presentations. At the least, it takes a few softwares working together and lots of practice. My main workflow usually starts with Sketchup, then Quicktime Pro, Photoshop, Cheetah3D, autopanoPro for my cycloramas, Cubic converter to make my virtual tours, etc. etc.
But, and this is a big but, almost every software I work with, other than Sketchup, has really improved drastically in the last 2 years. Compare, for example, the difference between the most recent Photoshop (CS3) update and Sketchup's. Photoshop worked flawlessly from the get go, added features that were not only really useful, but WORKED right out of the box, and there has been not one update since it released because they had it right when they released it. Compare that to Sketchup's release, which was fraught with peril right from the get go (remember the license fiasco, thank god for Craig for helping us all out during that crazy couple of weeks) and was a less than amazing update. Just like you, Tom, I still use ver 5 for almost everything and I use an Intel Mac which means that big models suck to navigate through.
How crazy is that! We were given a free copy of SU6, which everyone had been waiting for, for what seemed like ages, and a lot of us have tried it and gone back to 5. Yikes! And Layout has been a terrible disappointment; there has been talk about "grizzly" for almost three years and Layout is still it's original beta from 9 months ago!?! And needs so many work arounds as to be almost useless. Yikes again. And I need Layout; I would love to use Layout, but it is not the best piece of software.
Spence, I hear you!! I was so excited that morning when I logged into the Sketchup forums and saw that 6 had just released. It was like Christmas for adults. And it has been nothing but downhill since that moment. Everything since has been one letdown after another.
The ONLY bright spot has been this forum!! Can you imagine how low we would be without it? Where would we be if Coen hadn't stepped and pulled off a miracle? I am just saying................
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So... check out this bad boy on Eterea's site:
http://www.etereaestudios.com/docs_html/sentinel_htm/sentinel_index.htm -
I have been using SU since version 4, I too had a revelation the day I found SU and downloaded (I think) the 4 or 8 hour trial. I purchased Vue easel in order to render my models months afterwards, but it failed to handle interiors as I needed. I absolutely love using SU, the interface is comfortable and easy to learn. Coming from a Max 4 backround SU modelling ran rings around everything, and it (with a little effort) imported my CAD designs and could turn them into models with just a push and pull. These days my workflow has improved and now use up to six apps in order to get my products out the way I like them, I also have moved on from just a 2d flat CAD design to a 3d SU model, then a 3d rendered model, to a 3d rendering and SU animation, to now a CAD based SU model that is animated with Max 9, Vue 6 or Maya 8.
Seeing the waterfall clip is so inspirational, gets me wanting to strive to achieve results like that, or even better, sure it will involve many hours of learning, but the result of achievement worth every moment.The earning potential alone with those skills and results is worth the extra effort.
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Hi guys - I haven't checked this out yet, but from the descriptions it has to have some very slick/hi-end production values. I used to be in the business of creating animations and digital video and I'm very accustomed to having customers with utterly unrealistic expectations of what is possible at the price point I was working. I was working with an Amiga, making broadcast quality ray tracings at 25 MHz, and competing against people with SGI Reality Engine super computers...it can be a drag. But, I found a niche and produced work that I was proud of and that made my customers happy.
That being said, SketchUp's future is being worked on and we're listening to your desires for a product that grows with the industry. I know that sounds cagey, but I just can't give details. Know that we are working. We've been extremely busy as a matter of fact and I haven't been able to spend as much time as I'd like, here.
You've had faith in us before...don't give up. Keep discussing your thoughts and ideas, and we'll be better able to keep a direction that's more in line with your needs.
Cheers,
- CraigD
P.S. I watched the animation: Gorgeous rendering! My professional opinion is that the shots were rushed...the camera never gets to settle before a dissolve transition, which causes the viewer to re-orient their perspective...making the transitions disorienting. A minor quip for a beautiful production. I have come to appreciate that design that much more, because of that perfectly detailed, intricate look at the house. Thanks for sharing!!
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Wow CraigD,
Wonderful to hear some positive sounds on the development of sketchup.
I almost gave up hoping for better CG tools for Sketchup and a way to use high poly models towards third party render soft.....as some old marketing phrase used by electronics firm Philips : "Let's make things better!"
Thanks for the positive news.I think the SU community needs more of this.
Cheers
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Okay this is killing me...so I used a SU model and Vue and tried it myself, I used low settings as full settings would take 64 hours to render, imagine how long it would take to animate!
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interesting thread, (I did manage to load the whole thing.)
As a render it was very impressive, but as an example of animation or what I see at the movies, it was ordinary. (Im not saying I could do it.)Which is my point, Su is a design tool and renders are artist visualizations, how real do we need to be?
'Real' is whats happening around us right now, and time is running out so quickly if you want to make a difference.
Oh boy, now I have to say it: I think a lot of time and intelligence is being wasted making stuff look good, when imho, the time would be better spent 'designing'.
But, please remember, most of us are dealing with those wondrous beings called 'clients'.
I bet ya that a hypothetical client in that vis for 'falling waters' would have several 'issues'.
ie; you didnt show how the water would be so loud, I cant sleep',
etc.is this a hijack and am i out of my depth here?
if so, sorry, but feeling frustrated, we've just had apec here, ie: 9 major leaders of the free world and they just woossied around the important things, as we have come to expect.
I've always believed that good design could change the world, oh well, never mind.baz
ps: can anybody come up with more 'client issues' re 'falling water'
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Amazing Animation!
I understand what your saying Kannonball but I'm with Baz on this, I am in the same position as you, small business trying to deliver what the client expects. I think perhaps my clients are less media savvy than some. I am a perfectionist but I can't afford to let that stop me bashing out cad plans and a model and showing it to the client. I've tried 3DS Max, Vue, Kerkythea, Podium. I'm not great at rendering but my clients want me to design and model, they are not paying for rendering and wouldn't understand the concept. I'm never happy with the renders I've tried, it's too hit and miss for me. There is no way I will leave my computer idly rendering when I could be starting another job. The way I look at it, you introduce your clients to photorealism, you give them the idea that you might be able to achieve Pixar like results, you have raised the bar and you'll have to keep raising it. That's great but at the moment I can't factor in that time.
You have to ask the question, is rendering intrinsic to good design?
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Well, to add a bit of irony to the whole thing, I have had very little respect for Fallingwater and, quite frankly, Frank Lloyd Wright in general. I never understood how everyone got into a lather about a house that was falling apart before they even finished building it, leaks water like a sieve, and took 9 million dollars worth of remodeling to bolt the house to the rock to keep it from falling off the hill. And this is considered one of the greatest house designs in America. Kind of tells you something about us, just interested in the surface fluff with much less value placed on quality and longevity.
Craig, I am glad to hear that things are in the works! I am not to the point of giving up (the Sketchup interface really is flat out awesome and makes the other modeling programs seem like stone age tools) but I do more architectural visualization work than design and most of my projects are developing flyovers for 50+ acre, 100+ unit projects for "big" developers. But still "cheap"
There are just times when I feel that I have wrung all the quality of export I can out of Sketchup and find it still lacking somewhat. Too much flickering; too much moire; clipping can sometimes make the interior animations a real trick to get right since camera locations have to be just right to avoid it; and dxf exports that drop more lines than they bring in.I could not agree more about not enough time being spent on design excellence. But, since I am already hovering on the edge of hijacking this thread, I am going to leave that be for now.
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I don't think that there is one "perfect" software especially when it's being used for design, modeling, animation, rendering, and presentation, there probably never will be. "Falling Water" wasn't modeled and animated using just one app. I think the trick is to find the right combination for your workflow and desired results. Everyone here uses more than one app to get the result they want and I think that most everyone will agree that SU has improved their workflow. However that doesn't mean that there isn't needed improvements for SU and Layout and hopefully as CraigD has stated, they are coming.
Mike
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Did you notice the artist in his FAQ's notes his fees for a 3d animation can be upwards of 60,000 pounds. That's lots of meatballs baby! It seems reasonable that Falling Water is a portfolio piece that he likely spent many-many hours creating. I suspect he'd put it in the 60,000 pound category. So if your client wants something like that then how about quoting 75,000 pounds and contract him to do it for you?
Regards, Ross
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Hahahaha!
I like the way you think Ross!
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60K!!!
Surely thats totally unrealistic! It reinforces my view, we are designers - not animators. If he can get 60K for that then leave him to it because he's not competing with us.
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@ross macintosh said:
Did you notice the artist in his FAQ's notes his fees for a 3d animation can be upwards of 60,000 pounds.
His quote is actually 60,000 Euros (about 40,000 Pounds, 80,000 US$), but he is DREAMING about that sort of money IMHO. Put simply (and I'm willing to be proven wrong), there is NO WAY a sole practitioner using 3 not all that great computers is able to command anywhere those sort of fees. He could ask for them, but he wouldn't get them. The only way an architectural visualization specialist can charge 60,000 Euros for an animation is if it contains an enormous amount of work AND the turn-around time is VERY fast AND the animation is of extremely high commercial value, i.e. for tv, the movies or a HUGE development. In other words a large, talented (read well-paid) team working flat out for three weeks and a massive render farm capable of rendering it in a couple of days- both of which require the sort of overheads that justify these fees. If you asked this guy how long it'd take him to deliver 60,000 Euros' worth of animation he'd have to say a year- which would be no use to anyone.
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Perhaps. Maybe his 60,000 euros fee represents his hiring a big team & farming out processing to a big render farm. I agree that it doesn't make much sense as a sole animator. I also agree that while the results can be nice it certainly isn't a service many architects would ever use.
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@ross macintosh said:
Maybe his 60,000 euros fee represents his hiring a big team & farming out processing to a big render farm.
That's a very good point Ross- I didn't even consider it, although I can't imagine how a guy who normally works on his own could switch to managing an outsourced team of pros. I suppose it is possible he rents a render farm for big jobs, but I've never heard of this practice. It sounds to me like he's deliberately pricing himself out of work that would be impractical to attempt- something I've had to do (although never by THAT much
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Interesting topic, does anyone have an idea of what a market based acceptable price for such a work would be?
And how much a render farm costs for such project?one more...
Who would commission an animated project like this?
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@solo said:
Interesting topic, does anyone have an idea of what a market based acceptable price for such a work would be?
I'm guessing very roughly somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on output quality (I'm converting Pounds to Dollars at 1:2, I've no idea what the actual US going rate would be). I know I'd need a couple of months to attempt something like that (plus 2 weeks learning the software!)... ehm and about another month to render it on my sole laptop
.@solo said:
And how much a render farm costs for such project?
I don't even know if anyone does rent out render farms- it'd be insanely expensive to keep enough render programs (and all their nodes) installed and up-to-date enough to serve multiple clients using different progs.
@solo said:
Who would commission an animated project like this?
Museums, charitable conservation foundations, tv, can't really think of anyone else- a tiny market.
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