I Believe (to address the complaints of last week)
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I think it's hard to generalise that much, solo, as belief is relative to your own viewpoint. Some people would see my beliefs as fairly radical but those of pro-lifers fairly normal, as it depends on what your own beliefs are.
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Remus, a deeper look at the practice of taqiyya will reveal a more sinister objective, I think. One based on deception and lies. Nowhere in the Christian religion (or other major religions either, I bet) is there such a tenant. A Muslim is allowed to look you in the eye and smile while all the while despising and hating you in his heart.
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Remus, I am an athiest, so it's not that difficult to make such assumptions.
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Radical Islamists are more dangerous than fundamentalist Christians. The Christians will only knock on your door while the Islamists will chop off your damn head.
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where did you develop these xenophobic and racist views? And if you think fundamentalists christians are not dangerous, think again. Bush is a fundamentalist christian, and at his hand he is murdering thousands in the middle east. How does that sit with Jesus?
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@gaganraj said:
where did you develop these xenophobic and racist views? And if you think fundamentalists christians are not dangerous, think again. Bush is a fundamentalist christian, and at his hand he is murdering thousands in the middle east. How does that sit with Jesus?
Racist...I love this word. It has absolutely no meaning whatsoever anymore. It's thrown around by liberals in a failed attempt to impart guilt. Funny thing, it only works on other liberals. And so what if I don't like Islamists?
I guess my world view is more black and white.
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i could care less whether you feel guilty or not. that isn't the point. the point i'm making is that you're unable to see beyond a tiny narrow view point. do you hate the japanese because of pearl harbor? what about disgruntled army vets because of McVeigh? Russians because of the Cold War? Does this come across? The world isn't black and white. its all a shade of grey. Do you really fall for the propoganda that easily? Who is the evil empire this week?
Try and challenge yourself beyond a knee jerk reaction to something you're unfamiliar with and obviously scared of. Let me rephrase. Your views aren't racist. They are uneducated, reactionary and unenlightened. At least if you're educated on the subject, your hate can be a little more informed.
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Christian religions have been perpetrating atrocities for centuries and to imply that American hands are unsoiled is ludicrous. Christian persecution has been rampant throughout history and the United States is soiled in blood. You guys love to shroud yourselves in the flag and blather on about the founding fathers and the constitution while conveniently skirting the systematic eradication of first nations peoples and their culture by Jesuits and other religious orders. Priests abusing the very children they were supposed to be 'saving'. And while we're at it how about those wonderful Christian supremist folks from the south who enslaved and murdered blacks and continue to embrace their racist hatred to this day. And here we are today, a 'born again' American president who under the influence of religious extremists like Karl Rove have embarked on a holy war to spite the infidels.
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Tell me where you're from, Paris, and I'll be glad to dig up some dirt on your cultural history.
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My WW2 Vet Father does not like the Japs, for example. And for good reason. My opinion of Islamists is also far from uninformed or uneducated. I think you're all wrapped in some sort of nuanced enlightened political correctness. It's OK to despise, really.
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You are kidding right Ron?
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@bellwells said:
My WW2 Vet Father does not like the Japs, for example. And for good reason. My opinion of Islamists is also far from uninformed or uneducated. I think you're all wrapped in political correctness. It's OK to despise, really.
Ah, so now your true colors are revealed. While you veil yourself in American self righteousness and pretend to embrace the notion of bringing light and freedom to a world in darkness you actually resent anyone who does not fit within the American White profile. You degrade people by calling them names like 'Japs' and obviously condone a world ruled by god-fearing white folks. I actually thought you were a rather intelligent man, however, I now see you for what you are... a white bigot.
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ouch. I thought our culture was trying to move beyond this. but i think its the exact opposite. I see a rise in ignorance and hatred.
I highly doubt you're truly informed on the subject. Rush Limbaugh doesn't count as 'education.' Education is informing yourself on a broad range of opinions and facts on the same subject. Pro and Con. If you've done this, then despise on.
You know who the FIRST person killed in retaliation after the terrorist attacks on 9/11 was? A sikh man. The sikhs, who's entire culture and religion was galvanized around a response to muslim oppression and tyranny. A sikh was murdered.
that is what happens when its ok to 'despise.' Innocent people die needlessly. Does this make sense? you're just as guilty as islamic terrorists who 'despise' america.
old white men are perpetrating hate instead of understanding. how is that for political correctness?
edit: as acrimonious my response sounds, I do respect the fact that you can have any opinion you want - its the violence and hatred that seems to be expanding in the US that i find frightening.
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Talk about ouch...No, I really don't resent everyone who doesn't fit into the "American White" profile. I despise only those who wish to kill me; those who have already killed Americans. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand. Well, maybe it is for the "enlightened" crowd.
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fair enough. i think that is a pretty universal sentiment - not wanting to get killed. just don't let your own fear and paranoia of muslims or anyone else make you bust out that shot gun and kill someone needlessly.
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Needlessly, no.
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@bellwells said:
Tell me where you're from, Paris, and I'll be glad to dig up some dirt on your cultural history.
I would be pleased to tell you where I am from, however, now that I know where you are coming from I would be concerned that you would burn a cross on my lawn or poison my dog. I think this subject has come to a conclusion for me and so I bid you all adieu.
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bellwells expressed a view about "Islamists", NOT Muslims, and his views are probably shared by many Muslims. From what I see I don't care for "Islamists" either (nor theocratic fundamentalist Christians). These are "isms" out to get the rest of us. Islamists are the Taleban and Al Qaeda, Wahabis and the like. People who murder innocents for their "cause", oppress women, deny education to girls, and lock boys up in rooms to recite mumbo-jumbo all day. Sorry, don't like it.
I think bellwells trust of fundamentalist Christians is misplaced though. They are behind the policies abusing people around the world, giving strength to the Islamists and tearing down the USA. Bush et al work on their behalf and have succeeded in bringing the USA military and economic strength so low, we could soon be looking at the end of the American Phenomenon (in manifestation, if not spirit).
Plot, I have always felt on the side of the native Americans and lamented the waste of native cultures and nations worldwide, the horrible genocide. These slave-owner "founding fathers" were far from perfect. Still you won't find anything like the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights before that time. This set the stage for all people, including conquered indigenous nations to fight for their rights, opened the way for Mahatma Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, the real saints of our times. I don't know how it came this way. Certainly it was not the "founding fathers'" intent for blacks and women to vote. I guess I believe in the principles that were given a "beginning" in the founding of the United States and the French Revolution; these principles were picked up by people and improved upon. Say what you like, the rest of the World has looked to this as THE hope and THE way ever since, despite oppression from Nazis, Communists, Wahabists, and even the United States Government itself.
Secular and rational rule of law, and equality. SOME form of representation (at least until the Supreme Court took away our vote). Personal freedom, inalienable rights,... Science, even. All these things have been thwarted all along in this very country-- but this is the core that persists and tries to come to the surface. People will continue to be imperfect, even evil. And even the people who have seized power in the United States will work to tear it down.
Sorry for the long post. It isn't all black and white.
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Hi,
Ron belongs to that one minority that uniquely everyone is free to abuse and insult.
Old white men. (Sorry about the "old", Ron).Also, not having politically correct liberal/left-wing views makes him fair game for a few more dismissive insults. (Racist, bigot, etc, etc).
His only "crime" was to indicate that he has no time for Islamists and does not want to see the spread and acceptance of that ideology as an "alternative" lifestyle. When he dares to express this view, he is lambasted with lecturing responses informing him of how evil Christianity is/has been. He is even accused of being likely to plant burning crosses in the gardens of those he disagrees with! This is so ironic. Reading the opposing points of view who regard themselves as tolerant, understanding and obviously of an intellectual superiority, you can almost sense them fighting to suppress their desire to gather a lynch mob to deal with this heretic.
As an atheist, I have no interest in defending any religion but to compare the two in today’s political climate is absurd.
I have a few Muslim acquaintances and most have expressed their distaste, in general, for the decadent West.
Most also felt that 9/11 was something America had coming to them as payback. I have tried pointing out to them the contradiction of their choice to live and work in the West whilst holding these views. That’s another story!Whatever the rights and wrongs of the past, the fact remains that there is an on-going struggle for how we want the world to be. Islamists have a very clear view of how they want it to be. It is not a world I want.
To finish, it was also suggested that these people are only a tiny minority and that the vast majority simply want a normal life, like the rest of us. Those who express this view do not seem to understand that this is not some sort of life choice. This is a political and religious ideology that insists that the infidel be converted or killed. Ask any Hindu or Sikh as to whether they have been allowed to live side by side in peace.
Also, that tiny minority is not quite that tiny:
@unknownuser said:
A BBC World Service poll about attitudes to al-Qaeda has found that a majority of Egyptians have a positive or mixed view of the Islamist militant network. When asked "overall would you say your feelings about al-Qaeda are positive, negative or mixed", some 60 per cent of Egyptians said they had either a positive or mixed view. Osama Bin Laden's organisation has a number of Egyptians in its top ranks, analysts said.
Meanwhile in Pakistan, where much of the battle against al-Qaeda is being fought, just 19 per cent said they had a negative view of al-Qaeda.
Regards
Mr S -
@mr s said:
Ron belongs to that one minority that uniquely everyone is free to abuse and insult.
Old white men. (Sorry about the "old", Ron).Personally ive tried very hard not to insult anyone, even if i dont agree with them.
@unknownuser said:
His only "crime" was to indicate that he has no time for Islamists and does not want to see the spread and acceptance of that ideology as an "alternative" lifestyle. When he dares to express this view, he is lambasted with lecturing responses informing him of how evil Christianity is/has been. He is even accused of being likely to plant burning crosses in the gardens of those he disagrees with! This is so ironic. Reading the opposing points of view who regard themselves as tolerant, understanding and obviously of an intellectual superiority, you can almost sense them fighting to suppress their desire to gather a lynch mob to deal with this heretic.
The point i am trying to make is that you cant just dismiss islam because a proportion of them are evil bastards. I find it extremely irritating that in this supposedly enlightened age people can go around saying how much they hate a religious group/race when they havent even spoken to them! Its ludicrous! is it acceptable for me to say "Christianity shouldnt be allowed to work in schools, they just indoctrinate our children with religious slander." Of course not, because its not true, there are probably a few people that do that, but it doesnt mean you can say that about every christian.
@unknownuser said:
I have a few Muslim acquaintances and most have expressed their distaste, in general, for the decadent West.
Most also felt that 9/11 was something America had coming to them as payback. I have tried pointing out to them the contradiction of their choice to live and work in the West whilst holding these views. That’s another story!Are they not allowed to hold these views? I also have quite a distaste for the current state of the west, but i dont think it makes me a worse person for it. Its also very possible to live and work here while holding these views. Just because i dont like our general attitude to living it doesnt mean i cant enjoy things lower down the scale, like having good friends and living a comfortable life. Even if it is steeped in hypocrisy
@unknownuser said:
To finish, it was also suggested that these people are only a tiny minority and that the vast majority simply want a normal life, like the rest of us. Those who express this view do not seem to understand that this is not some sort of life choice. This is a political and religious ideology that insists that the infidel be converted or killed. Ask any Hindu or Sikh as to whether they have been allowed to live side by side in peace.
Also, that tiny minority is not quite that tiny:
@unknownuser said:
A BBC World Service poll about attitudes to al-Qaeda has found that a majority of Egyptians have a positive or mixed view of the Islamist militant network. When asked "overall would you say your feelings about al-Qaeda are positive, negative or mixed", some 60 per cent of Egyptians said they had either a positive or mixed view. Osama Bin Laden's organisation has a number of Egyptians in its top ranks, analysts said.
Meanwhile in Pakistan, where much of the battle against al-Qaeda is being fought, just 19 per cent said they had a negative view of al-Qaeda.
More shoe horning an entire religious group in to one category. And i notice only a few middle eastern countries are included, hardly representative of the muslim population.
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