How to Foil Cheaters
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Any ideas?
I'm now running these online seminars at a modest price compared to live computer lab training. I did the first one yesterday and the registration was small: Only a single individual. Hardly worth my while financially but it was a commtment and I talked and taught for 7 hours. It was pretty clear that they opted to use speakers and a microphone instead of a headset and as a result, the guys boss could hear everything that I was saying and was able to sit behind him and watch the whole session. I could hear him in the background.
I just had a student sign up for my next one and she at least was honest and informed me that there will be a group of 7 of them sitting in on the session and asking if that would be okay. I told her that I thank her for her honesty but that it isn't okay. This is the way I feed my children.
Any way, any bright ideas on how I can stop this sort of thing? -
Susan,
I Thought You live in a community where knowledge is
somewhat respected.
A guy came today to our office and saw some illustrations
of villas we did for another client. He liked the design
and asked if we could copy the project and give it to him.
Of course he ment for free. I just looked at him in
astonishment. -
That's a tough one.
What about a minimum class size?
Shouting the occasional profane expletive across the speaker phone is probably out of the question.
What about a signed "permission slip" by a director level, where the director puts their John Henry on the agreement for the number of people?
What's to stop someone from connecting their PC to a big screen in a conference room? Yuk.
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A tough one Susan. I think at the very least you need to make it crystal clear in the registration process that this is a one-shot service...that the fee is on a per-recipient basis....and that a headset is mandatory. As you point out, it's easy enough to tell if one is not being used, because of the presence of background noise.
At least that makes it clear to people exactly where they stand. It won't stop the cheating...any more than FF can stop people using its models after they unsubscribe...but they will at least know that they are cheating and it may cut such behaviour down to an acceptable level.
What they will probably then think is that they will soak up what you have to teach them, then cascade that down to other colleagues. Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing you could do to prevent that, even after a lab session. -
I'm a blunt Englishman and I feel I'm going to cause offence, but I'll say it anyway.
@unknownuser said:
I'm now running these online seminars at a modest price compared to live computer lab training.
It might be a modest price compared to live computer lab training, but your costs are modest compared to live computer lab training. You have many more potential customers throughout the world by webinar training than you would offering lab training.
@unknownuser said:
I did the first one yesterday and the registration was small: Only a single individual. Hardly worth my while financially but it was a commtment and I talked and taught for 7 hours.
This might be an indication that it's not going to be a successful venture on your part, or not one that is worth your time for the return.
@unknownuser said:
It was pretty clear that they opted to use speakers and a microphone instead of a headset and as a result, the guys boss could hear everything that I was saying and was able to sit behind him and watch the whole session. I could hear him in the background.
Maybe the reason the boss was sat behind the bloke wasn't because he was trying to get a lesson for free, but he was checking out the quality of the teaching so he could put 20 other members of his firm through your training in the next few weeks.
You say that he was able to sit behind him and watch the whole lesson, but is that what actually happened? And maybe it wasn't your lesson that he was watching, but the increasing skills of his staff member.
Let me put it this way, if you're the boss and you're interested in learning Sketchup, are you really going to do it by putting a staff member on the seminar and sit behind him, or are you going to just sign up for the seminar yourself?
@unknownuser said:
I just had a student sign up for my next one and she at least was honest and informed me that there will be a group of 7 of them sitting in on the session and asking if that would be okay. I told her that I thank her for her honesty but that it isn't okay. This is the way I feed my children.
So if this student decides that she cannot afford to pay for the webinar by herself and opts out, how much food will your children be getting with that $0?
I can understand that giving a seminar to a group of 7 rather than 1-1 will be more work on your part, but it will also be the case that the group of 7 won't be getting the same return that they would be getting as lone users. Maybe you could work out a new price scale so that groups could receive your training for a higher fee.
I have massive respect for you for trying this venture and the skills you must have to try this, but I get the feeling that your attitude of feeling cheated by your clients may be damaging your business. (If I was your customers boss and I was considering putting more people through your training I'd certainly decide against it after seeing this thread)Seeing as it's such a new experience maybe you shouldn't be looking at it as people cheating you out of fees, but as a way of advertising your business to many more people. 6 people sat watching one up front on the computer simply aren't going to learn anything near as much as they would if it was 1-1. Maybe a few of them will sign up in future for 1-1 training because they've seen it's worth it with the group.
Having a group of seven students watch your seminar could bring in a massive return for you while just teaching that one student 1-1 could mean you get no credit whatsoever. Just imagine that those seven students go on to create work far superior to their friends at college. The news that the learnt their skills through you may bring plenty of new customers your way. But if one lone student goes to the expense of paying for the training themselves they are probably going to keep the competitive advantage to themselves.
Good luck with your business. I hope things work out for you.
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John,
I don't think what you said was offensive at all. Nor were you any more blunt than I was or any one before you was. We all stated our opinion. Yours is contrary.
The people who answered here and were supportive of my point of view clearly find the same things self-evident that I do. You do not. You have taken a view point that perhaps does not consider some facts. So if I may expound to counter some of your points.@unknownuser said:
It might be a modest price compared to live computer lab training, but your costs are modest compared to live computer lab training. You have many more potential customers throughout the world by webinar training than you would offering lab training.
First, I live in North America and my prices need to be reflective of the fact that my earnings need to sustain us in North America, not Europe. I would love to reach people in Europe as well. In point of fact the value of the US dollar is so low as compared to the Euro that these classes are within reach of most Europeans at the moment.
Pricing is a very interesting issue altogether and a bit of an art. One needs to take into account what the competition is doing of course. The price needs to be sufficient to cover costs and to allow some profit with a maximum of 10 people in the class for a live class and maximum of 14 for a webinar. I want to be able to provide individual attention as that is the real value of having an instructor. Otherwise and inexpensive DVD will do. If the class is too large which is a must with a very low price, it is impossible to give all those people the attention that they need. The price has to be low enough to be attractive to large numbers of people. Not ALL people, just large numbers. But it has to be high enough that on those occasions when attendance is low, it would still cover costs at the very least, and preferrably leave a modicum left over so your time is even partially compensated. No one wants to be in the position where they have to cancel classes and refund individuals. It is costly to do that in many ways and it is terrble to have to dissapoint those who were wanting the class. I have had to do that on occasion for my live classes but I have done many where the attendance is just high enough to cover my direct costs and no more. So I have left my family, stayed at an airport for several hours, taken 6 hour flights, taken shuttle buses to keep the costs low, stayed at a modest hotel, overnight, been at the computer lab 2 days in a row talking non stop for 7 hours each day, been away from my family and home all night, then taken a flight back home, usually a red-eye sleeping sitting up and arriving home at 6AM the next day. The next day being a write off. I have done all that so that the computer lab gets paid, the and all of the other costs are met, but I have nothing left in my pocket at all. I have to do that in order to maintain credibility and then, when I have a completely full class, I do quite nicely. But they nice profit is offset by the days of work for no remuneration.
Further regarding pricing, the price doesn't just cover my 3-1/2 hours per class. There is a enormous amount of administrtion that goes on behind the scenes. Managing e-mail list is an enormous job particularly when one wishes to do it responsibly and remove those who wish to be removed or those who have provided bad addresses and differentiate those from ones on vacation or whose mail box is over quota. It is difficult to automate because the wording and format is different for all servers. Just compiling the lists is huge.
Putting together the html mailer or in other cases the art work for a post card, not to mention the cost of the post card, answering all the phone queries in advance, providing certificates of completion, answering all the queries and help questions after the class. Booking arrangements with the hotels, airlines, computer labs. Doing the accounting for the whole mess etc etc etc.
I take great umbrage with people who have so little business acumen that they fail to realize this and complain about the pricing. I offer a fair price. If it isn't fair for your situation, it is a shame, but you are free to simply not take the class. If a group asks for a special price by offering me a large number of people, I am certainly willing to deal with that when asked.@unknownuser said:
This might be an indication that it's not going to be a successful venture on your part, or not one that is worth your time for the return.]
Certainly, that is one possible meaning. It may also mean that I did not provide sufficient lead time when advertising to allow for the decision in the slow moving upper echelons of corporations to give the go ahead. It may also mean that it is a bad time of year for architects in certain areas, where there may be another event taking place, a busy season, a large project etc. Or they just need time to go out buy the equipment and test it.
Google SketchUp offers live classes in the US and they have been doing it for a long time. Yet some classes have no more than a single registrant and others have a wait list. I imagine they may decide that a certain city must be taken off the list if it is consistently low in registration, but a single such instance is indicative of no trend or any useful information.@unknownuser said:
Maybe the reason the boss was sat behind the bloke wasn't because he was trying to get a lesson for free, but he was checking out the quality of the teaching so he could put 20 other members of his firm through your training in the next few weeks.
If that was the boss's reasoning, he need only have been forthright about that. In fact, he was duplicitous, saying he would be popping in and out during the session to check on how things were proceeding. If individuals didnt' know that what they are doing isn't quite right, then they wouldn't feel the need to create cover stories that don't ring true. The boss knew full well that sitting in on the session and benefitting from the knowledge without paying for a second person wasn't quite "kosher". If he hadn't he wouldn't have created the "checking in" story to cover for those time where I could hear him. In fact, had the class been conducted using VOIP, I would have had them muted most of the time and I wouold not have known so easily. In fact we used Speakerphone because they were local and I heard him consistently, no matter when for 2 days straight.
In fact, what I gleaned and then checked with them and recieved affirmation, is that they do not own SketchUp and were evaluating whether they wanted to purchase it or not for the firm. I don't sell SketchUp and get no benefit if they do purchase it. I would have prefered honesty up front. I would likely have been inclined to allow this had I known honestly what their intent was, but the surreptitious sitting in was not appreciated.@unknownuser said:
So if this student decides that she cannot afford to pay for the webinar by herself and opts out, how much food will your children be getting with that $0?
It is better to get $0 dollars on this occasion so that you MAY get more dollars on future occasions. It isn't just the one group of 7 it is multitudes of groups of 7. By allowing that, I dillute an already small market and simply kill the chance for a future stream of earnings. If one group does it and is enabled to do so, then it will be easy for many groups to do so. In fact, this lady declared that "it wasn't clear" on my website and that is why she asked if it is okay. I am frankly quite surprised that it wasn't clear since there is clear discussion about one on one feedback and review of an invitees work on their computer. But clearly by asking the question, she knew in her heart of hearts that it wasn't right. In fact, when it was clear that it wasn't okay, she did ask for a special group rate and I provided one.
As a result of her query however, I put in capitlized red letters on the Webinar page: "ONLY ONE PARTICIPANT PER REGISTRATION PLEASE!!! No Observers."
@unknownuser said:
I have massive respect for you for trying this venture and the skills you must have to try this, but I get the feeling that your attitude of feeling cheated by your clients may be damaging your business. (If I was your customers boss and I was considering putting more people through your training I'd certainly decide against it after seeing this thread)
Okay, this part I do find offensive.
I use extensive feedback questioning and people are not shy, believe me. There was the lady who took great exception to my perfume and the one who chastised me for starting the class late after I explained that I was barred from my Hotel room owing to an early morning fire alarm. There were some more legitimate complaints as well and I have made some changes based on excellent useful commentary. No one has ever complained about my attitude and I bend over backwards trying to be helpful to my students, whom I really appreciate. I have spent days, for free, helping my students after the class with complex projects and I don't mind a bit. It is my choice to help them.I am well aware that this post may be read by potential customers and it is actually with intent that I used this as a device to inform. It is much easier to have someone read this as general broadcast information than a direct frontal attack on one particular individual's very evident less-than-candid behaviour.
Further, this is my community and there are many people here who run businesses associated with SketchUp and I very much value their help and input. This was a very real dilemma for me and I needed to hear ideas on how to mitigate the problem.@unknownuser said:
Having a group of seven students watch your seminar could bring in a massive return for you while just teaching that one student 1-1 could mean you get no credit whatsoever. Just imagine that those seven students go on to create work far superior to their friends at college. The news that the learnt their skills through you may bring plenty of new customers your way. But if one lone student goes to the expense of paying for the training themselves they are probably going to keep the competitive advantage to themselves.
Interesting point, but a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
All I ask for is direct honesty and almost anything can be negotiated so that all feel there is a win-win situation. I don't appreciate it at all when someone tries to 'put one over" on me and they know full well that they are doing so.
Talk to me, I'm approachable, but don't try to sneak things under the table. All I ask. -
Hi Susan,
Good to hear you are moving along with this project.
I have a solution but I think it would be better to
talk about it via PM.I'll shoot one to you this evening
Mike
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Have you considered partnering with ASAI or the AIA in some way and giving the classes under their auspices? You might need to kickback some of your fee as a donation. But these organizations might be less likely to allow cheating than individual companies. And you also benefit from their endorsement.
Not sure if it is a practical or desirable idea but I thought I would run it up the flagpole and see who salutes.
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Hi Roger.'
That is a really great idea. In fact I have been working on partnering with the varios Associations in Canada for my live classes and it has been like pulling teeth. They have so many restrictions I have got nowhere so far.
As for the AIA and ASLA, those organziations currently endorse Google for the live classes so don't know if mine will go over. Frankly, unlike the Canadian Associations which require you to jump through hoops, the American ones require mucho dollars annually.
But it is a very good idea. I'm going to mull over that one. -
@unknownuser said:
Seems to me getting the classes booked is the priority...everything else is just trivial. Having others listen in for free is only a loss when you have no bookings to look forward to.
This makes a lot of sense .... trees .... forrest ..... trees .....
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It is a priority. Not giving it away for free is a second priority.
No one selling a product or service sells one and gives away 6 for free. If one is able to take steps to prevent the 6 from taking the product, it is prudent to do so.
Having 6 paying customers singing your praises is better than 6 non paying customers singing your praises.I was asking not for platitudes, but for opinions to help out with what any one should readily understand as an undesirable situation,
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.....trivial??, .....trees??? ....nice!!
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just pointing out a surfeit of disses therefore breaking point reached
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Who needs a vocabulary class when we have Susan! surfeit, nonplussed... wow.
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Thanks Todd.
Bruce, this is not the first thread I have seen where you have been disrespectful and then claimed offence when others react to your attitude. You can do whatever you please but in my book you are being rather pugnacious.
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@sorgesu said:
Thanks Todd.
Bruce, this is not the first thread I have seen where you have been disrespectful and then claimed offence when others react to your attitude. You can do whatever you please but in my book you are being rather pugnacious.
Cheers, Susan
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Oppps ! Looks like I may have hit a nerve
I still stand
by my comment though. The concentration should be on getting
bookings not worrying if you are being listened to by more
than the contracted number.For the time being it would appear that you cannot determine
who is listening in, so its best to forget about it. Make as
much as you can with what you have. Then buy better technology
which will allow you to monitor the situation and control the
freeloaders.Here is something that you may consider. The Revenue Commissioners
here in Ireland have a policy when interviewing a tax payer
undergoing a Tax Audit.At the start of the interview the Tax Inspector asks a simple
question that often gets results. It goes like (never happened
to me ) 'Do you have anything that you wish to disclose prior
to this audit?' It gets good results for the Tax Man as quite
often the interviewee owns up and discloses stuff that the Tax
Man had no idea about.Susan, when you start your session I suggest that you might consider
reading a short statement and require your Trainee(s) to agree to
the terms. Doing this verbally has much more impact that written
contracts, believe me! You could also keep it light-hearted and
fun. Maybe explain that background comments can spoil the overall
experience unless they are part of the session.Also point out that you 'tailor' your input to the individual
that you are listening to. If there are more you can also take
their levels of understanding and expertise into account for a
better end result.People are basically honest but often will go for a freebie if
they think there is a slim possibility of being caught.Mike
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Mike, you actually make some really valuable suggestions and I thank you for latest input.
Now c'mon. Why do you think you need to tell me that concentrating on sales is more important than concentrating on avoiding theft? Do you really think that any other concern at all precludes the ability to concentrate my efforts on sales?
I know you very well Mike and, given that you and I had already had a discussion on this at length, your comment didn't give me offense. You are such a laissez-faire kind of guy you often don't even recognize a slight. I know that. It is just that it intensified an unwelcome comment that I had hitherto intended to ignore.Bruce had an interesting point with respect to his experience with lurkers. However, discussion continued on the subject with many people offering suggestions that directly addressed my problem. His information and experience were interesting, but by no means should it have been expected to be the last word on the subject. That experience does not negate the issue. So suddenly interrupting the flow of suggestions with a comment that both trivializes and belittles was uneccessary. It wasn't overt, to be sure but it was nonetheless obvious. And my recogniton of such wasn't cause for a defensive World War 3. I indicated that I understood the subtle dig and gave a subtle dig in kind. Sometimes people don't realize how clear their intentions are when they think they are being very subtle and don't even admit to themsleves that their intention was not innocent.
So what I thought was Bruce's humerous response to my "surfeit" comment and was indicative of self-realization, if not an apology and that there was tit for tat, cause and effect, in my earlier response to his comment, was apparently not so. It wasn't humour and there was no self-realization.
I appreciate evereyone's input. There have been some really helpful comments and it was indeed good to have this venue to gather the info. Best to put it to rest now.
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'laissez-faire'? Had to look it up! Yes you may
be right Susan. It helps to get me by
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Interesting thread,
I actually wrote a really long reply a few days ago but my internet connection died and I lost it so here is an abbreviated version:
Susan, as a former college tutor myself I can completely understand your annoyance that people are attending class without paying the course fees! They couldn't do that in a physical college so I agree it isn't fair that people are exploiting you over the net.
No you don't have the "classroom" overheads, but that's irrelevant, college students don't get 1 to 1 tuition, their lucky if there is less than 30 in a class. Also as you are an experienced architectural professional I'm sure your course is more beneficial too.
The critics in this thread should consider that a teacher is only getting paid when their with their class. To deliver one hour of quality teaching takes an average of two hours preparation - producing learning materials, setting objectives, writing schemes of work and most importantly - evaluating quality. I stress the last point because it's a business like any other.
There is a big difference between the boss that stand's behind a student to evaluate the quality of the training and the cheap, lazy boss that thinks "Great, free training for my whole workforce".
There is a saying that goes something like "a student only understands and remembers 70% of what they see but 95% of what they do". The quality and reputation of your training is seriously diminished by the adhoc crowd that stands and watches behind the one paying student. When the freeloaders get back to their desks they will have only a superficial understanding of the subject.I don't know how you solve the problem Susan but I just want to let you know I can understand how infuriating it is. Bloody freeloaders!
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