Mon$anto vs. Mother Earth
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@mics_54 said:
I recognize anti-GMO protestations as an attack on capitalism and nothing more.
Let's just say that I believe Forbes before GMOWatch.org.
Science can fix natures failings.
I'll voice my opinion on what I see as dangerous and 'unnatural' food growing methods forced on farmers from companies that appear to me to have no other interests other than hard cash profits.
As I have said earlier in this thread, I really would like to see the farmers and growers having full control over their seeds and now livestock!
On this side of the pond, particular Ireland, there are very successful co-operatives / companies, the Kerry Group for example, where farmers hold a very large and influential shareholding in the company stock. The Kerry Group is a hard nosed business and is run on a global scale. It looks to me that they are being kept 'in check' from what greed driven management can / may like to, get up to GM etc.
Mike, do you trust Greenpeace?
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"Science can fix natures failings."
Seems to me that science is used more to fix human failings ... Nature has done pretty well when left to her own processes.
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AHH I knew it! now humans aren't natural!
nature is polio, aids, syphilis, diptheria, drought, black plague, tsunamis, pestilence, floods, fire, tornados, earthquakes, flu, hurricanes, volcanos ...I could go on for an hour.what humans do...no matter what it is...is nature.
...and no...I wouldn't trust greenpeace
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@mics_54 said:
AHH I knew it! now humans aren't natural!
nature is polio, aids, syphilis, diptheria, drought, black plague, tsunamis, pestilence, floods, fire, tornados, earthquakes, flu, hurricanes, volcanos ...I could go on for an hour.what humans do...no matter what it is...is nature.
...and no...I wouldn't trust greenpeace
Mmmmm ...... you have a point there Mike!Yes, I suppose it could be argued that Big M is acting naturally ...... self preservation etc etc.
I would come back to the original concern, Big M having too much control over food. This I would argue cannot be a good thing. Okay, maybe some to the products they are producing are useful and may even help society to some extent BUT I still think monopolies are a bad thing and should not be allowed.
Have a look at what Philip Howard, a researcher at Michigan State University, has to say, here, The Monsanto Monopoly http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the%20monsanto%20monopoly.html
It looks to me that monopolies are commonplace in the USA and tolerated by Government to a large extent for various reasons (power of the $) ..... but don't worry as the EU Commission comes down very heavily on monopolies. BTW, I don't have a lot of good things to say about the EU Commission but their stance on monopolies is to be commended.
So when USA farmers get to the stage that they can only get their seeds from Big M etc at exorbitant prices they can always see if its possible to sneak a few seeds in from Europe that can be replanted and replanted and replanted ........ seeds are quite small things after all
BTW, I do trust Greenpeace to a large extent ...... they are one of the only organisations with 'balls'. They believe in action rather than talk!
I have just watched Seeds of Freedom over my lunch break (30 minutes long) and found it quite informative. I recommend it as an eye opener, particularly the case of Percy Schmeiser that nearly lost his farm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-bK8X2s1kI&feature=player_detailpage&hd=1
Liz Hosken, UK Director of Gaia Foundation also truck a cord when she said,
'By controlling the seed you control the farmer, by controlling the farmer your control the whole food system and thats the legacy of genetics in farming'In India small farmers using GM seeds are noticing a new problem with pests. The pests (and weeds) develop their own resistence to the GM crops (with built in Roundup). This is giving rise to 'super pests' and is forcing GM using farmers to use ever more powerful pesticides ...... then again, this suit Big M ...... more cash in the bank!
I would suggest that patents granted and intended patents for seeds should have a built in requirement that they (somehow) don't cross contaminate non GM crops! Fair should be fair after all. Let them have their GM seeds / crops but I don't wan't them blowing into my field contaminating my crops!
I would compare this to noise pollution! if I were living beside an event centre they (the management) would NOT be allowed to pollute by resience with loud noise! I think they same law should apply to GM crops ...... then again Big M is working on bees, so maybe they are getting ready for this battle! Bees that only pollinate their GM crops and overfly 'natural' crops! Sounds farfetched, I know, but I would put nothing past them
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Mr Mayor..I read the article you posted @ GMeducation.org
I made notes as I read it.
How many companies would you say isnt a monopoly..10...20...1000?
I thought monopoly meant a single controling principle.
The article starts out calling Monsanto a monopoly in the title...but then says there are 4 major players.
I would prefer honesty in a commentary, especially if I am reading it to learn or form an opinion on the subject.
So the author goes ghetto and refers to the 4 corporations as a CARTEL implying nefarious, illegal business.
DoJ inviestigates, finds no anti trust violations, closes the investigation after 2 years. The antagonists suggest that the DOJ is some how part of the evil empire.
I think the higher prices of seeds...like food..in the time frame mentioned isn't due to some phoney monopoly but rather coincides with fuel cost increases... which affects us all....and in costs that have no link to food or Monsanto.
Then the article goes on to blame monsanto for increases in the suicide rate....
I think perhaps the article, and the entire web page, has a little bias...and like greenpeace must illicit a fear response to get donations so they can save the planet from people like me.
So we come to Percy Schmeiser who lost all the cases in court and still claims to have won...which I find weird.
http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/percy-schmeiser.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser#Judgment
Percy got caught.
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Mike,
Just a couple of points. I tend to find that most situations in life are varying shades of gray and never simply black or white.
As regards a monopoly situation. I would regard any company that is trying to achieve this situation as just as bad as one. I honestly don't feel that taking a patent out on an extension on Nature's seeds is acceptable. I have no problem with companies taking out patents on extensions to human's inventions however. This law should be repealed as its just not right!
I haven't yet investigated the full Monsanto history. When I do so I will then form a more solid personal opinion of the company in my mind. To date from what I read, I am putting them into the dark gray area of business as hypocrisy doesn't cut it for me.
On the other hand if they are to have their patents, so be it. And they can charge what they like for their Roundup resistant sterile seeds. My only requirement would be that they don't contaminate non GM neighbouring crops that are growing as nature intended. I imagine the only way they could do this is to put all their crops under cover while growing! And while they at at it, they should retain the 'super pests' that develop because of these GM crops.
I know this sounds totally ridiculous and impractical but I see no other way to protect neighbouring non GM crops and heritage seeds that I have no doubt will be needed when Big M and Co mutates the hell out of Nature's core seeds and renders them next to useless in the future.
As regards Percy. He didn't win nor did he loose as he was not liable for Big M's legal costs. Again, this was yet another gray area. BTW, the video didn't indicate the court decisions.
So Mike, you are happy with the idea of future fruit, veg and cereals with built in re-seeding obsolescence?
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Wow now I trust Monsanto even more! Thanks Solo!
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Thanks Pete for doing the footwork for me. As the say, a 'picture is worth a thousand words' and this particular picture shows what I suspected regarding political connections
Mike! More fool you! Are you going to answer my question, 'So Mike, you are happy with the idea of future fruit, veg and cereals with built in re-seeding obsolescence?' I'll understand if you don't want to
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Mayor,
@unknownuser said:
Just a couple of points. I tend to find that most situations in life are varying shades of gray and never simply black or white.
I agree and have been trying to convince the anti corporation fan club of this for the entire thread
@unknownuser said:
As regards a monopoly situation. I would regard any company that is trying to achieve this situation as just as bad as one.
Idon't think that's in Monsantos plan
@unknownuser said:
I honestly don't feel that taking a patent out on an extension on Nature's seeds is acceptable. I have no problem with companies taking out patents on extensions to human's inventions however. This law should be repealed as its just not right!
Monsanto's patents are human inventions.
@unknownuser said:
I haven't yet investigated the full Monsanto history. When I do so I will then form a more solid personal opinion of the company in my mind. To date from what I read, I am putting them into the dark gray area of business as hypocrisy doesn't cut it for me.
We have time. I suggest perhaps reading some of the pro GMO information along with the "other stuff"
@unknownuser said:
On the other hand if they are to have their patents, so be it. And they can charge what they like for their Roundup resistant sterile seeds. My only requirement would be that they don't contaminate non GM neighboring crops that are growing as nature intended. I imagine the only way they could do this is to put all their crops under cover while growing! And while they at it, they should retain the 'super pests' that develop because of these GM crops.
Most of this sounds like conjecture and rhetorical So I don't see a need to rebut. I've not seen any verified conclusive study reports beyond those admitting a bias and lacking proof. To a hammer everything looks like a nail.
@unknownuser said:
I know this sounds totally ridiculous and impractical but I see no other way to protect neighboring non GM crops and heritage seeds that I have no doubt will be needed when Big M and Co mutates the hell out of Nature's core seeds and renders them next to useless in the future.
Is this another one of your grey areas? It sounds more black and white by your description...almost as thought you've already made up your mind even though it sounds ridiculous and impractical
@unknownuser said:
As regards Percy. He didn't win nor did he loose as he was not liable for Big M's legal costs. Again, this was yet another gray area. BTW, the video didn't indicate the court decisions.
I think the link I gave you indicated he lost 3 court cases and the SC case and had to pay Monsanto his profit earned by the stolen tech. He also had to pay his own legal bills totaling, by his estimate to be C$400,000.00
@unknownuser said:
So Mike, you are happy with the idea of future fruit, veg and cereals with built in re-seeding obsolescence?
I'm not sure what the term means so you might point me to an explanation of the phrase for clarity. Does re-seeding obsolescence mean there is no need to ever re-seed? What ever it means I would say it depends on THE BOTTOM LINE as in any cost benefit analysis
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Now you're getting impatient for my answers? Would you rather I just post pasted images from code pink blogs like some lazy troll?
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@mics_54 said:
Now you're getting impatient for my answers? Would you rather I just post pasted images from code pink blogs like some lazy troll?
Feel free to find images that support your view, I'm guessing the internet is very thin on those.
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I think I can find just about anything I want... like you do.
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You probably will not but I do urge you to watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5hVMcB6is8&feature=player_detailpage
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If that was intended for me I've already seen it.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/business/monsanto-victorious-in-genetic-seed-case.html?_r=0
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Monday that farmers could not use Monsanto’s patented genetically altered soybeans to create new seeds without paying the company a fee.
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Well if you buy GM seeds and then try and sell your own seeds parented by GM crops then I can understand that. However nothing to stop you using the new seeds yourself. Monsanto will just start producing plants that do not produce seed, it's the only solution to keep lining their pockets. I guess that's what Mike was aiming at with "re-seeding obsolescence".
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well you gotta strike a balance between profit and future detriment of the planet's ecology.
I have nothing against anyone making vast sums of money, good on them, but when we don't understand the knock-on effects of such "advancements" the profits mean nothing.
They say "We add a protein into the DNA," etc....but there is no long term research into the effect on the human body or indeed the environment. I don't see how difficult this is to understand. Years ago they used to say smoking was good for you, for example. This situation is not too dissimilar.
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Oli,
I find your position sensible.
I think if you've been following the thread that it is obvious that my objection is now and will remain to be against conclusions drawn based on certain criteria.
I think we all know what they are.
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