Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad Pakistan

JuanV.Soler

In the meanwhile of this interesting discussion, let me insert this video that surely will fulfill **Frederik**´s claim about conspiracy theory :

YouTube - Prophet vs Profit (Osama's Cave part 1/4)

JuanV.Soler

@honoluludesktop said:

How ! Good question. I for one believe in social evolution.

Hi,
honoluludesktop
you got me thinking on it.
And I have found out that I prefer to believe in an individual_personal evolution. On history time as yours.
Because, where is that social evolution lead us to ? In the best of the cases to a social development of Democracy, is it ?
A society of individuals who relates themselves in an orderly way, so to speak.
(For the sake of that purpose we allow ourselves now to destroy other´s ways of relationship. The reason today for doing that is because we feel that we are being attacked from those others undemocratic places.)
That is how it goes. So when we win we wil now have that social democratic evolution almost fulfilled.
And then, what ?
The same life as now. There will be a power we can throw out every now and then and keep living. That will be all.
Whilst if you believe in individual evolution anything one can imagine is possible.
I believe man has a transcendental urge somewhere in his existence.
No matter what time in history he is to live. Thus, the way to relate ourselves with others has to be discussed every time. But the need for freedom, for individual freedom, has always been, I believe. So better change the chip of the mind, no ?

honoluludesktop

I believe (perhaps unfortunately) that one of the engines that drives the move to democracy is population growth. Without the increasing number of people to use cell phones, there would be no money to advance that technology. As long as profits are to be made, and the population grows, the people's natural "will for freedom" increasingly becomes an factor that must be considered in the decisions that promote profit.

honoluludesktop

srx, and others, I realize that ideally, there is no justification for killing innocent civilians at any time, by anyone. Yet how can a Government of individuals operate without politics. History demonstrates that no responsible man remains untouched, and uncompromised. Without politics, there is no order amoung individuals.

I understand those with pain from expierence to some degree. Perhaps because I have been spared, I am more moderate.

Humpmetwice

I sit and read everyone’s post here about politics, the American government, if Osama bin laden is really dead and if they had him surrounded why didn’t they just capture him and bring him to justice. I ponder some of these questions myself. I would‘ve loved to see him in general population in a prison somewhere but the way our system seems to work at times, he more than likely would’ve gotten a mistrial for some technicality and the Navy seal would’ve been sent to prison for mistreating him! Osama bin laden would’ve lived out the rest of his days in Alabama or Kentucky somewhere receiving welfare and food stamps off the backs of the American people. I also wonder if they would’ve captured him and brought him to trail and someone happens to get a wild hair and shoots him on the way into the courthouse what would’ve happened to that person, surly this person would be brought to justice! I love my country I so try hard to love her but I see the unmistakable spiral down and all the countries out there that seem to think their better at Democracy, and individual rights will soon I’m afraid get their chance to prove it.

Stinkie

@honoluludesktop said:

History demonstrates that no responsible man remains untouched, and uncompromised.

True. We agree in this regard. Yet some politicans misuse the concept of 'the burden of responsibility' to force their own, all too exclusive agenda. (Anecdote: my girlfriend and myself were invited to dinner at a high-ranking NATO official's some time ago. As the evening progressed, the topic of conversation shifted to politics. At one point I asked the NATO official why he'd thought George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq - as I'd never been able to quite work that one out. After an uneasy silence, he said: "It was personal." I apologize for bringing up Bush again, I really do.)

@unknownuser said:

Osama bin laden would’ve lived out the rest of his days in Alabama or Kentucky somewhere receiving welfare and food stamps off the backs of the American people.

An astute analysis.

JuanV.Soler

@honoluludesktop said:

srx, and others,
hummm, well, at least, i am others cheers up ¡¡¡

@honoluludesktop said:

Without politics, there is no order amoung individuals.

It is Love not Politics which creates order among individuals.
My thought,
So to say. Sorry**Honoluludesktop**.

JuanV.Soler

did you see my last link ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLuw1N8RsyA
it was about profit
and**prophets**

honoluludesktop

Didn't realize I might have to defend American from unsubstantiated personal opinions. It appears that you judge us poorly regarding defending ourselves against a enemy that has killed thousands of people in America, then hides in a someone else's country. Doesn't the English government work with America in defense of its own citizens from the terrorist attacks of Al Qaeda?

At least use the best source of information to form an opinion. While not accurate at all times, the White House briefings do attempt to correct erroneous statements.

linea

I'd like to raise a slightly different point:

In 1980 there was a siege of the Iranian embassy in London after it had been taken over by Iranian Arab separatists. The siege was ended when the SAS controversially stormed the building in Operation Nimrod killing 5 of the 6 hostile occupants who were members of the DMRA (Democratic Revolutionary Movement for the Liberation of Arabistan), a group that was virtually unknown before they seized this building. The incident was filmed and broadcast live by the BBC and ITN. News teams were camped outside the embassy. A unit from the British news organisation ITN, using recently introduced Electronic News Gathering (ENG) camera equipment, managed to establish a viewpoint at the rear of the embassy. It was images from this vantage point that showed the SAS raid on the building live on television after their correspondent had been 'tipped off'. (However the SAS insisted on a short time-delay between the live events and their broadcast in case the militants were watching the broadcasts). The footage is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p4DmuGyehc
source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Embassy_Siege

And this was in 1980's Britain where as a nation we generally did things discreetly and with very limited resources.

You are telling me that Barrack Obama and the US government with their record of showmanship, aren't releasing the film of the demise of the greatest criminal of our time because of some supposed higher principles?!
Or their consideration that they might make OBL an idol - He already is to his followers.

Stinkie

@honoluludesktop said:

It appears that you judge us poorly regarding defending ourselves against a enemy that has killed thousands of people in America, then hides in a someone else's country.

Whoa, whoa - you got it backwards. One cannot 'defend' oneself against atrocities that have already happened. You can, obviously, bring the culprit to justice, but the way things are looking at the moment, that wasn't the prime objective. Revenge, and boosting Obama's popularity in all likelyhood were. Do I particulary care Bin Laden is dead? No. Do I feel the US have violated Pakistan's sovereignity, and Bin Laden's rights as a person? Yes and yes.

Question: if, say, France were convinced terrorists were hiding in Ohio, would you deem it okay for the French government to send drones into the American airspace? Or to extract people from the US without the US's government's formal consent?

honoluludesktop

And you think that 9/11 was the end of their attacks on America? The French example is just to tickle my ear right. Suggest real events like the French exploding a aerial nuclear weapon in my back yard. The English, and French air attacks in Libya. Stuff like that happens all the time.

Stinkie

@honoluludesktop said:

And you think that 9/11 was the end of their attacks on America?

I'm inclined to believe Bin Laden's death will make no difference with regards to future terrorist strikes against American targets. Or European ones, for that matter. Don't forget we're in the same boat as you guys are.

Of course, it'll prove interesting to see what the data collected at Osama's hideout will reveal. Had he really become a mere figurehead, or was he still leading al-Qaeda?

And again, I'm not exceptionally sorry the man is dead. I simply feel countries should respect eachother's sovereignity. Except, obviously, when not doing so would result in grave crimes being commited against humanity. Libya is nothing like the botched abduction/execution of Bin Laden.

I think.

@honoluludesktop said:

Suggest real events like the French exploding a aerial nuclear weapon in my back yard.

Hm, I'd forgotten about that. Chilling, criminal, and utterly abhorring.

Stinkie

Fair points.

EscapeArtist

My $.02 FWIW, and it's just opinion...

I'll start off by saying I'm against the US meddling in other nation's business in any way. I've been against the Iraq invasion before it even started, and Afghanistan was somewhat necessary but has gotten out of hand. I am ashamed of the Americans cheering and chanting "USA" in the streets. This is not the Olympics, we didn't get a gold medal. Cheering death is terrible.

That said, there is simply no other way the Bin Laden story could have ended. The only better ending would have been a bomb dropped on his hideout killing him - much less personal and execution-like. Some think OBL should be placed on trial and put in prison. I disagree. As long as the man was held alive he would have become a rallying point for anti-western sentiment. Does one assume that his followers won't threaten to and execute terrorist attacks to pressure us to set him free? How many suicide bombers on trains, subways or aircraft are worth keeping him alive? Is that risk worth it? Not pursuing him to the end leaves a continuing threat and instigator alive (though IMO he was increasingly irrelevant, but I'm no intelligence officer) and a rallying point for terrorists.

Do I think the the invasion of Pakistan to kill him was right? Yes. I'm 100% sure that knowledge of OBL living in Pakistan went very high up in the chain of command, and he received direct assistance from Pakistan. Not across the board, but enough to exist without too many worries from his host.

Was it an execution? Yes. Undoubtedly. He was never going to leave the building alive. Was it revenge? I cannot deny that it is possible; though at this point to me it is an impersonal, distasteful deed. Was it justice? No. Maybe if you're an "eye for an eye" type, but not to me. Too many have died and the water has become too muddy for justice to ever be extracted from this situation. Burial at sea? Fine. No need to create a new Mecca for his followers.

There is NO way there could have been a good ending to this story.

Alan Fraser

Jeff beat me to it. I'm pretty sure it was simply an execution...whatever the official line might be. And personally, I couldn't care less.
Of course, criminals ought to be put on trial whenever possible; but I don't think that would have been possible with Bin Laden, as his lunatic followers sought to effect his release by ever more desperate acts.
The acid test would have to be if you were granted the gift of foresight and saw your wife/children/family members slaughtered in yet another pointless terrorist act attempting to put pressure on the International Court...whether you would still be able to put your hand on your heart and say "Yes, that is a price worth paying. Justice must be seen to be done." I know I couldn't. The guy just wasn't worth it.
I agree, attempted terrorists strikes will continue...but they would have been more concentrated and focused in the context of a period of legal proceedings. Bin Laden's human rights are not worth the life of one more innocent bystander.

david.

@unknownuser said:

At one point I asked the NATO official why he'd thought George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq - as I'd never been able to quite work that one out. After an uneasy silence, he said: "It was personal." I apologize for bringing up Bush again, I really do.)

Gosh, I'm glad you got to the bottom of that mystery. The entire world has been waiting for an 100% credible for exactly why Bush did it. Now, we know it wasn't all that intelligence from the Brits, French, and US intelligence agencies that was the motivating factor. Your NATO general needs a promotion for that one. And, you deserve an emphatic attaboy for your part in finding the smoking gun.