Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad Pakistan
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@gaieus said:
@unknownuser said:
As for Yugoslavia ... the aforementioned bombings wouldn't have been necessary if we (and by 'we' I mean Europe) hadn't sat around with our thumbs up our asses for years on end.
Damn, I remember that. It was at our doorsteps.
Yeah. Remember Srebrenica? "To deter by presence." Where's that "shakes head in disbelief" smiley when you need one?
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How ! Good question. I for one believe in social evolution. As societies evolved from isolated families, to tribes, to city states, to kingdoms, then into democratic nations, individual consciousness about "rights" evolve. Ultimately a ruler can only rule with the consent of his people. Oppression is eventually overcome. Idealistic? perhaps, but look at the Arab world today. Their tribal kingdoms are slowly coming to a end. Democratic nations may not be the final answer, and this may not be the time when "HOW" with the perfect preservation of individual rights happens, but soon (I hope), certainly eventually.
Until then we put up with a system of International Courts (mostly ineffective), and Self-Defense Forces (at times brutally effective). Like it or not, well done or not, America is still the leader of individual rights in the World today. I for one, would back any Country or leader that is.
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@honoluludesktop said:
Oppression is eventually overcome. Idealistic?
I believe so, yes. I'd much prefer it if there were no opression in the world, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. There will always be people who, for their own personal gain, either oppress or exploit others, be it dictators or stockholders. Greed and lust for power run deep in us.
@honoluludesktop said:
America is still the leader of individual rights in the World today.
A nice thought, but the facts prove otherwise.
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Sure, but we work on it and things get better. Contemporary society beats the days of "ring around the roses". Technologically and socially.
@unknownuser said:
@honoluludesktop said:
America is still the leader of individual rights in the World today.
A nice thought, but the facts prove otherwise.
I'm open to other opinions. Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
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@honoluludesktop said:
Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
Pretty much every country that's abolished capital punishment, doesn't circumvent the Geneva Conventions, doesn't illegally abduct foreign nationals, doesn't torture, etc.
Imagine these scenarios:
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I get apprehended on the suspicion of terrorism by the Dutch authorities. If formally charged, I get to have a lawyer. There'll be a trial. Of course - I have rights.
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I get apprehended on the suspicion of terrorism by the US authorities. They blindfold me and put me on a plane. For the next three months or so I'm subjected to physical and psychological torture at a 'black site'. No-one knows where I am. I re-emerge in Guantanamo. There's no charges, no lawyer, no trial. I could be in there for years - even if there'd be no evidence against me. I have no rights, see.
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@unknownuser said:
Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
If your standard for democracy and individual rights is bombing of innocent civilians without the real target at all (later showcase, don't close your eyes)...
hmmmm... I really don't know any other country that is doing even close for it! -
@unknownuser said:
Who do you think is doing more for Democracy, and individual rights?
Personaly I think the USA's patriot act is doing the opposite of what it was intended to do....or is it doing exactly what they wanted?
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I have to add another example to stinkies:
A bizzare problem has made a stir in Serbia recently. A married couple in the U.S, immigrants from Serbia, was prosecuted for keeping photos of their little 4 years old daughter in a bath, naked of course, and their 7 years old son, also naked. It turned out that some of the photos were taken by their son and some took their parents. Children are taken away from their parents and the father was imprisoned and then released from jail on bail. No need to say the family is going through a hell, and for nothing really.
, free country, don't you think?
After the reaction and help from others, after many months of being separated from children:
http://usaserbs.net/news-usa/181-serbian-family-nastic-could-get-up-to-5000000-from-usa.html -
@unknownuser said:
......Pretty much every country that's abolished capital punishment, doesn't circumvent the Geneva Conventions, doesn't illegally abduct foreign nationals, doesn't torture, etc....
I get the ideals, but which countries?
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@honoluludesktop said:
@unknownuser said:
......Pretty much every country that's abolished capital punishment, doesn't circumvent the Geneva Conventions, doesn't illegally abduct foreign nationals, doesn't torture, etc....
I get the ideals, but which countries?
It's no longer an ideal, it's in practice in at least (random order):
Sweden. Norway. Finland. Denmark. Iceland. The Netherlands. Belgium. Germany. Luxembourg. Austria. Switzerland. France. Spain. Portugal. Italy. Greece. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Poland. Czech republic. Hungary. Slovakia. Slovenia. Croatia. Malta. Great Britain. Ireland.This is not to say that there is a country with no human rights problems at all, but my in my list they are the smallest.
I confess to being something like an EU patriot...Anssi
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@mike lucey said:
Guys,
I am taking all this with a grain of salt until its proven! From what I understand he was shot in the eye while using one of his wives as a shield! Its claimed that this particular wife was also shot dead!
Due to the rubbish claims, it now appears the US authorities are debating whether or not to show pictures of OBL's corpse on 'taste grounds'! When I heard he was 'buried at sea' I had to laugh!
It looks like the US Navy Seals had him cornered! Why the hell wasn't he captured and put on trial in a civilized manner under UN jurisdiction as there are a lot of questions to be answered or at least asked!
As I said, it looks like a load of old cobblers and possibly a PR stunt by OB?
My thoughts exactly!! The whole thing seems a bit outrageous..... In other words, I ain't believing 'em yet.
Cheers,
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@anssi said:
....It's no longer an ideal, it's in practice in at least (random order):
Sweden. Norway. Finland. Denmark. Iceland. The Netherlands. Belgium. Germany. Luxembourg. Austria. Switzerland. France. Spain. Portugal. Italy. Greece. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Poland. Czech republic. Hungary. Slovakia. Slovenia. Croatia. Malta. Great Britain. Ireland.
.......And, I confess, that I didn't expect a answer. Certainly by the criteria previously stated, the UK, and France can not be part of the list by virtue of their actions in Libya. I won't do it, but I expect that I don't have to look far for exceptions in any country.
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@honoluludesktop said:
I won't do it, but I expect that I don't have to look far for exceptions in any country.
True! - no country should sit on its *ss. There's plenty to be done still. Nonetheless: the US's track record of the past decade is much worse than that of most other Western countries. Mr. Bush's legacy, if you will (I'd not like to be in Obama's shoes!). If I had my way, the man would be tried.
Enough politics for now. The house needs cleaning.
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In the meanwhile of this interesting discussion, let me insert this video that surely will fulfill **Frederik**´s claim about conspiracy theory :
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@honoluludesktop said:
How ! Good question. I for one believe in social evolution.
Hi,
honoluludesktop
you got me thinking on it.
And I have found out that I prefer to believe in an individual_personal evolution. On history time as yours.
Because, where is that social evolution lead us to ? In the best of the cases to a social development of Democracy, is it ?
A society of individuals who relates themselves in an orderly way, so to speak.
(For the sake of that purpose we allow ourselves now to destroy other´s ways of relationship. The reason today for doing that is because we feel that we are being attacked from those others undemocratic places.)
That is how it goes. So when we win we wil now have that social democratic evolution almost fulfilled.
And then, what ?
The same life as now. There will be a power we can throw out every now and then and keep living. That will be all.
Whilst if you believe in individual evolution anything one can imagine is possible.
I believe man has a transcendental urge somewhere in his existence.
No matter what time in history he is to live. Thus, the way to relate ourselves with others has to be discussed every time. But the need for freedom, for individual freedom, has always been, I believe. So better change the chip of the mind, no ? -
I believe (perhaps unfortunately) that one of the engines that drives the move to democracy is population growth. Without the increasing number of people to use cell phones, there would be no money to advance that technology. As long as profits are to be made, and the population grows, the people's natural "will for freedom" increasingly becomes an factor that must be considered in the decisions that promote profit.
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srx, and others, I realize that ideally, there is no justification for killing innocent civilians at any time, by anyone. Yet how can a Government of individuals operate without politics. History demonstrates that no responsible man remains untouched, and uncompromised. Without politics, there is no order amoung individuals.
I understand those with pain from expierence to some degree. Perhaps because I have been spared, I am more moderate.
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I sit and read everyone’s post here about politics, the American government, if Osama bin laden is really dead and if they had him surrounded why didn’t they just capture him and bring him to justice. I ponder some of these questions myself. I would‘ve loved to see him in general population in a prison somewhere but the way our system seems to work at times, he more than likely would’ve gotten a mistrial for some technicality and the Navy seal would’ve been sent to prison for mistreating him! Osama bin laden would’ve lived out the rest of his days in Alabama or Kentucky somewhere receiving welfare and food stamps off the backs of the American people. I also wonder if they would’ve captured him and brought him to trail and someone happens to get a wild hair and shoots him on the way into the courthouse what would’ve happened to that person, surly this person would be brought to justice! I love my country I so try hard to love her but I see the unmistakable spiral down and all the countries out there that seem to think their better at Democracy, and individual rights will soon I’m afraid get their chance to prove it.
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@honoluludesktop said:
History demonstrates that no responsible man remains untouched, and uncompromised.
True. We agree in this regard. Yet some politicans misuse the concept of 'the burden of responsibility' to force their own, all too exclusive agenda. (Anecdote: my girlfriend and myself were invited to dinner at a high-ranking NATO official's some time ago. As the evening progressed, the topic of conversation shifted to politics. At one point I asked the NATO official why he'd thought George W. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq - as I'd never been able to quite work that one out. After an uneasy silence, he said: "It was personal." I apologize for bringing up Bush again, I really do.)
@unknownuser said:
Osama bin laden would’ve lived out the rest of his days in Alabama or Kentucky somewhere receiving welfare and food stamps off the backs of the American people.
An astute analysis.
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@honoluludesktop said:
srx, and others,
hummm, well, at least, i am others cheers up ¡¡¡ 
@honoluludesktop said:
Without politics, there is no order amoung individuals.
It is Love not Politics which creates order among individuals.
My thought,
So to say. Sorry**Honoluludesktop**.
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