Building a Sketchup Computer... on a $1000 budget. UPDATED
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Building a Sketchup Computer... on a $1000 budget.
what I plan to show here, is how we can have a 3ghz or higher dual core machine that will allow the highest output in Sketchup for the lowest dollar amount.
I will be building this machine in real life, as it will be my work machine... so I will call out real parts that I have purchased. and problems that I have found.
ok so what are our goals for this machine?
Goal 1. "Fluid Movement" or close to fluid movement in the SU interface we have to be able to spin our model quickly, to keep work flow at it's maximum and to enjoy our work.
Goal 2. "Multitasking" as draftsmen or designers we are always listening to music, search resources, adjusting textures, getting e-mail... we must have hard core multitasking.
Goal 3. "Multiple Monitors" with the multitasking comes the need for a larger workspace.
Goal 4. "Sadistic Machine Quality" this machine will be used abused and really never even put up, you will work on it all day, play on it all night and then it will grind away on movies or renderings while you rest in bed, it will need to run as cool as possible and in all likelihood never be turned off more than momentarily.
Goal 5. and maybe the most important. I have rent and bills to pay, it has to be extremely cost effective.
so how to achieve our goals... research!
first we have some large choices to make before the smaller ones. number 1 on that list is Processor... AMD has been kicking Intel's butt as of late in this department, but they are also becoming quite large, acquiring other companies such as ATI so they have many more stock holders to think of and their price is showing it. not the bargain it used to be, now even more expensive sometimes than Intel.
for the price and the speed we are looking at Dual Cores... and since we are on a budget a $500 processor is not on the list... so we have to think overclocking... let's overwork our processor and make it act like a $500 CPU. so now if we have decided that we need over clocking and a dual core CPU... we want the most gain for our money... meaning we can expect % increases in output for overclocking a CPU normally 30% 40% 60%... we want the CPU that can go the furthest... after searching around and reading various "tests" I find that the E4300 Dual Core from Intel can gain more than 100% output without overheating the processor... with certain configurations. this will be key later.
so I decide to go with the Intel E4300 you can find them around $100 - $120
now because of this CPU we chose, we have very specific needs of a mother board because the way this configuration will work out so well it that the components of the system will communicate ona 1:1 basis... this keeps things under-stressed and cooler... and makes for almost instantaneous communication. for this reason we need a Motherboard that is.
a. has 1066 front side bus
b. uses DDR2 800mhz Memory
c. is cheap...choices? "Asus p95 Deluxe" or the "Abit Fatal1ty F-190HD"
for the Price... Abit wins... $114.00
now we need that DDR2 800 Memory ...
OCZ Dual Chanel 2048MB PC6400 DDR2 800MHz ATI CrossFire Memory (2 x 1024MB) $139.99 @ Tigerdirect.com this is super cool running high performance RAM...
ok so now where are we at?
Intel
Core
2 Duo E4300 Processor - $120.00
ABIT Fatal1ty F-I90HD LGA 775 ATI Radeon Xpress 1250 MicroATX - $114.00
OCZ Dual Chanel 2048MB PC6400 DDR2 800MHz - $139.99alright then $373.00 not including tax and shipping... not bad...
now we need some Power a Case a CD-Rom or DVD maybe a 3.5 and a Video Card... ah and don't forget, we're overclocking, so some of the money we save is obligated to a cooling system now.
now let's do some thinking outside the box... we research all of these components and all the prices and it adds up quick.
50 70 or 100 bucks for a 500watt PS like we'll need. DVD ROM? forget about it 80 minimum... Case 50 bucks... at least fans... all this... it's adding up... but what if we could buy it all in a package, with most of what we want in it? we can... I know a place that sells a Gamer's set up SoftByte I'll give a email addy here... guilartej@gmail.com ask for Jose. and this set up offer.
160111074032 - GAMERS! INTEL CORE2DUO E4300 SYSTEMw/2048M+160GHD $459 FREE UPS SHIP $459
if we pay $512 for this we get a DVD player, Power Supply, Case, E4300 CPU, 2 Gigs of Ram and a Video card. make sure to upgrade the Ram to 800mhz...
now we buy our Abit Fatal1ty MB and buy this system, and when it gets here we'll take out the motherboard they put in it and install ours...
or if you have an ATX Case, 500W PS and a spare Hard Drive and some other misc. parts we're ready to start assembling...
as for me, I'm waiting on a Motherboard to arrive...
stay tuned for the next installment when we start putting all the part together for our stabilization prior to overclocking.
till then... start shopping and join me in building a dream machine.
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definitely keep us posted- I'll be watching this space closely!
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Thx for taking the initiative Kristoff, I feel that I have some comments to add though, if you don't mind me doing so, feel free to argue a point.
Also, I'm leaving this here for the time being, but am considering moving it to the Gadgets section, will keep an eye on it to see how things develop.
@unknownuser said:
... number 1 on that list is Processor... AMD has been kicking Intel's butt as of late in this department, ... not the bargain it used to be, now even more expensive sometimes than Intel...
I don't know where you get that from. Ever since Intel introduced the Core 2 and Core 2 Duo range AMD has been at a loss and been playing catch-up. Not to mention the Core 2 Quad, AMD has a new quad core CPU on the market, but it can't match the Intel product. Not in performance, not in power requirements, not in heat dissapation. What you do have correct though is the fact that AMD has had to drop their prices in order to keep sales up, but the performance cannot compare with Intel Core 2 Duo CPU's.
Also you might want to wait a little while for the 4MB cache version of the E4300 (called the E4350 / E4320 ?, not sure) as the E4300 has 2MB of shared cache, which isn't too bad in itself though.
@unknownuser said:
... I find that the E4300 Dual Core from Intel can gain more than 100% output without overheating the processor...
This is true to some extent, but we have to remember that you when you overclock you void your warrantee. Also keep in mind that the CPU's rated at lower clock speeds are done so because of a lower quality die and are specifically rated at those speeds because they'll function normally within specific parameters, being the the clock speeds they are rated at. Just to be clear, getting the E4300 to run at almost double its rated clock speed isn't something everyone can accomplish, especially if you want stability. Also, I would term it "without overheating the processor" as you'll be applying special cooling to keep the CPU cool.
@unknownuser said:
a. has 1066 front side bus
b. uses DDR2 800mhz Memory
c. is cheap...a. - yup,
b. - yup, a plus
c. - yup, but shouldn't be the primary reason for choosing a moboI've found that picking a mobo that has all the features you can't do without (pretty much every mobo on the market isn't too badly specced these days) and a few things you have to keep in mind for future upgrades and performance generally leads to a mobo that is a little more expensive, but I'd rather build a machine that I have an upgrade path on than having to build a new machine from scratch every now and again.
@unknownuser said:
... now we need that DDR2 800 Memory ...
This needs to be qualified. If the CPU bus is 1066MHz and the mobo bus is only 800MHz it means that the system will be running deviders and not on a 1:1 ratio (which is best as Kristoff pointed out), although we must note that the CPU chosen (the E4300) has a CPU bus of 'only' 800MHz, some of the higher CPU models (E6300 upwards) currently sport a 1066MHz bus.
Also DDR2 800Mhz memory isn't the be all and end all. Good quality DDR2 667MHz memory that can run low latencies (tight timings) are as good (and sometimes outperforms) as DDR2 800MHz memory, that said it's a safer bet to get the 800MHz RAM if you don't know what you're doing when setting RAM latencies and running deviders to ge the system running at optimal performance.
In short we'll have to wait for mobo's that run a 1066MHz system bus to be able to run on a 1:1 basis with a 1066MHz CPU bus, also you'll need 1066 MHz RAM then.
I can support your choice of brand for the RAM, however the Corsair range isn't bad either as is some other brands like Mushkin.
Some people might wonder why they need 2GB of RAM, actually you need 4GB, but 2GB will do allright. Especially if you intend the machine to run renderings etc. not to mention running the MS OS Vista (which is a little problematic using SU on at this point in time AFAIK).
@unknownuser said:
...bucks for a 500watt PS like we'll need...
The capacity PSU you'll need depends on quite a few things, the number of HDD's in the system, the number of PCI devices, the number of USB devices that draw power, the graphics adaptor and its power requirements, the CPU and it's power requirements, number of optical devices( CD-R / DVD-RW / whatever, there are so many variations today), if you have any other items that will be drawings power such as system fans and any other specialised cooling. There is a more scientific way to determine what capacity PSU you'll need. Have a look at http://www.extreme.outervision.com/index.jsp and navigate to the power calculator. There are also some other useful links from the URL above. Generally it is also considered to preferably pic a PSU with a 20A rating on the 12V rails as this offers greater stability than lesser rated models. Also consider things like the amount of up-time required from the PSU, capacitor ageing, etc. - you'll probably find you'll need a 700W / 750W PSU in most cases (sometimes even higher - yikes!), especially when overclocking.
For the people who would like to build their own PC but have no idea where to start / what to do, you could also have a look at http://www.buildeasypc.com/, granted I don't know how old the advise is, but then again I don't need it, have built my own machines in the past.
Kristoff, please be careful of advertising (the dude who's e-mail addy you mentioned), if in doubt please contact Coen to sort out if its cool or not.
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Juju, thanks for the lengthy reply... I'm investigating and will reply soon with my thoughts... as for advertising, I would only be concerned that I put the poor bastages e-mail in a thread... as I have bought from him, it's more a recommendation than advertising... seeing how I get nothing out of it.
anyway lil busy right now so I'll be back tonight... to answer... till then keep the posts coming...
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Ugh, I'm done building systems. However, I am ready to purchase a new computer and display. I tried going to my local guy, but after 2 consecutive hard drive failures, I don't think he's giving me good advice or selling me good hardware - either way, I'm not going back.
So, any recommendations for someone who's probably going to get a Dell, dude? I'm specifically interested if there is a SketchUp recommended video card?
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What do you think about this?
http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=789466&starttime=0&endtime=0
QuadCore at such a low price, great for Rendering...
George
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I'm using the Nordic Hardware setup...
http://www.nordichardware.com/Reviews/?page=3&skrivelse=500
as for the 1:1 we'll be setting the fsb lower than it's max... I believe the 800mhz is what we'll run across the board... as you mentioned...
as for the power supply they are using a 500W in this set up and I have a 550W and we're only shooting for their stable range setup...
they top out @ 117% increase... I'm not shooting to that extent by far...look here for the sweet spot
Sweetspot 3330 MHz 85 % 1,450 V
http://www.nordichardware.com/Reviews/?skrivelse=500&page=5their results...
Pros
- Price / Performance
- Overclocking potential
- 800MHz processor bus opens up new possibilities for overclocking
Cons
- Heat
- 800MHz processor bus results in worse performance than other Core 2 Duo models
- No Virtualization Technology
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oh and on the note of waiting for the larger e4300 model... I already bought mine with that system from jose... ;(
but I'm fine with 2
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Well, don't say you didn't have any warning when the PSU blows. That's just the good part, the bad part is undervolting hardware can seriously damage the hardware, even destroy it. Undervolting happens when the PSU can't supply enough current to the hardware's demand. Also, overclocking a machine to run every now and again is one thing, having it run that way for extended periods of time puts strain on the components, especially the PSU (and CPU, but that is quite another story with electron migration and all) as it needs to feed the setup with juice.
Oh yes, I think your choice with the CPU is safe for now, I was somehow confusing it with the E6300 / E6400 series which are being updated, AFAIK the Allandale cores aren't getting a microarchitecture update.
BTW, from what I understand the Intel Q6600 CPU's (quadcore running 8 MB L2 cache, clocking in at 2.40 GHz with a 1066 MHz FSB) will drop in price to approximately $266 (US) in July. At approximately the same time the newer technology will be released with more L2 cache, a FSB of 1333 MHz, possibly requiring less power to operate and could quite possibly then be running cooler as well.
Snap! Some of the above is in the link that gksl4 provided a few posts up.
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well did you read the test?
the allendale undervolts to 1.1 volt at 100% stable and could even go lower...
and the point here is not to spend more than 1000 and $266 for a intel chip that will need a $300 board is not going to help us...
i didn't understand this part?
"Snap! Some of the above is in the link that gksl4 provided a few posts up."
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The "snap" part in blue was with regard to my comments on the Intel pricing, etc.
Yes, I did read the test, I've also read quite a few others on overclocking and reviews and and and. Do as you must, overclocking is a means to an end, if done correctly that is.
I don't want to get into a discussion about overclocking and I also don't want to hijack / sabotage your thread. So please continue, I think that there are people that will benefit from the thread, one way or the other.
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you're not hijacking or sabotaging... this is exactly what myself and other will elarn from, two "Points of View"
and I am not expert... I've read quite a few of these reviews also... and they do vary quite a bit...
anyway let's keep it going, I have recieved my $512 computer from Jose... time to strip it. photos to follow...
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My two cents is when you pick a video card, pick one that support dx10 such as the nvidia 8800 GTS.
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good point DX10... mmmm
I'll post later tonight I have a lot of stuff to add to this.... I've installed serveral components
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I used to be into the overclocking scene, overclocking everything I got my hands on, from computers, to video game systems, even to my calculator. I learned one lesson from all of it. Computers are delicate machines, that will not be able to sustain being overclocked for long. Instability, lock-ups, and power-downs will all happen to any overclocked computer. guaranteed. if anything, for a computer that I expect to be running stably and for extended periods of time, I would underclock it. not by much, but just enough to run the computer maybe a degree cooler, and slower, that way I know that I will be able to get a long life out of it, and i can expect it to run everything predictably.
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don't live in the dark ages... yesterday's overclocking is today's standard... as were the overdrive procressors of 1990...
I think everyone overclosks to some extent and it has become the standard... so much that system board makers are building these overclockable systems... the cool running of this and it's extreme stable running is one of the main point of this system...
however I have been experimenting with a Intel Pentium D 805 2.66 and have some intersting observations to pass on... that will hit on Willo3's theme...
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@cyberdactyl said:
My two cents is when you pick a video card, pick one that support dx10 such as the nvidia 8800 GTS.
Hmm, I don't quite know how DX10 will benefit SketchUp (at this point in time) as it uses OpenGL API for best GFX accelleration. Maybe if you intend on building a machine for gaming under the guise of a work machine.
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Microsoft will not release a DirectX 10 version for Windows XP.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20060525104034.html
And as far as I know XP is still the best OS for SU.Dual or quad core and 64bits all sound great, but AFAIK SU6 runs at its max on a single core 32 bits processor. Of course other software does benefit.
[Maggy]
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Maggy,
yes all true... I have been experimenting last night with a Bargin Intel Pentium D 805 2.66g...
bought the board PCCHIPS P23G and the CPU for a C Note... ($100.00 US)
working pretty good in sketchup... although it is having major temp problems running at 65c to 70c on a case fan and the stcok intel cooling unit... so not good... not good at all... reviews are similar...
the E4300 is running in the base system at 37c so needs more testing
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Never trust stock Intel coolers!
Regards
Maggy
[Maggy]
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